Amnesty International Unhinged

[JackWhite]

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I find it odd; the people who are more offended by someone comparing Guantanamo to a Gulag then the fact that their government has tortured people to death, denied people their rights, act secretively, etc.

I really have trouble putting myself into the heads of these people.

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I find it difficult to put myself in the heads of people who get more outraged over a few suspected terrorists being mistreaded than by the mass murder of millions by communist governments. I don't approve of our government mistreating people, but when compared to mass murder, I do not feel it is quite as bad. Not sure why that is so difficult to understand.

[bdk3clash]

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I find it difficult to put myself in the heads of people who get more outraged over a few suspected terrorists being mistreaded than by the mass murder of millions by communist governments.

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Straw man. Who said that they were "more outraged" by this than the murder of millions by "Communist" governments?

Also, these are actions being done by our government in our name.

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I don't approve of our government mistreating people...

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This is more than the Bush administration is willing to concede.

[kurto]

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I find it difficult to put myself in the heads of people who get more outraged over a few suspected terrorists being mistreaded than by the mass murder of millions by communist governments.

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There's a couple of problems with that sentence. For starters, please list the Communist Governments that are in the news for their mass murders and then direct me to the people who aren't offended.

Your response is 'imaginary.' It doesn't exist.

Second, you said "over a few suspected terrorists being mistreaded"... First, the key word is "Suspected"... I didn't realize that if you were a 'suspect', that meant we shouldn't be concerned how they're treated. Second, mistreated is an awful softening when people have been beaten to death... including someone who is believed to be entirely innocent.

But this is typical... let's play wordgames! You're re-enforcing my point...

DO NOT be outraged by our own government's misdeeds including allegedly beating an innocent man to death. This is minor. But if someone utters a remark critical of this and compares it to a Gulag, NOW you should get outraged. Its clear that someone using an analogy you don't agree with is more egregious then a government imprisoning people for years without trials and torturing suspects.

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I don't approve of our government mistreating people, but when compared to mass murder, I do not feel it is quite as bad. Not sure why that is so difficult to understand.

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Who cares? An analogy doesn't have to be comparable by every trait to be accurate.

If Gulags had people locked up without trials, if they tortured people and it was all done with secrecy and little oversight; and the same happened in Guantanamo, then the analogy is useful. It doesn't mean both have to have be from communist governments, nor do they have to have killed a million people.

I still say something is wrong when you are more upset by use of the word 'gulag' then by what is happening that caused someone to use that word.

[MMMMMM]

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So the defense for Gitmo is "Our Gulags aren't as bad as the other guy's Gulags"?

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What's the defense for Amnesty International preferentially castigating the U.S. over this instead of castigating Cuba, or North Korea, or Iran--all of whom are FAR worse violators of human rights and have FAR worse prison systems, etc.? What's the defense for Amnesty International's comparing a molehill to a mountain and talking about them as if they were the same thing?

[MMMMMM]

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In any event, the secrecy surrounding Gitmo, the lack of human rights (apparently) afforded the prisoners, the secrecy of the various US run prisons around the world -- smack of the Gulag.

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Yeah, sort of like a shoplifter heisting a pack of bubble gum smacks of the entire Enron scandal.

[bdk3clash]

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What's the defense for Amnesty International preferentially castigating the U.S. over this instead of castigating Cuba, or North Korea, or Iran--all of whom are FAR worse violators of human rights and have FAR worse prison systems, etc.?

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Are you just making this stuff up?

Amnesty International on Cuba

Amnesty International on North Korea

Amnesty International on Iran

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What's the defense for Amnesty International's comparing a molehill to a mountain and talking about them as if they were the same thing?

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Straw man, again.

Having actually read the Amnesty International Secretary General's message that caused all the phony "outrage" among neocons, it's clear to me that this whole issue is the typical right-wing echo chamber at work. Don't bother dealing with any of the issues brought up, just jump on something that will play well to your base and express outrage ad nauseum. Kill the messenger indeed.

Here's an eloquent excerpt from the "controversial" AI report:

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In 1973 AI published its first report on torture. It found that: “torture thrives on secrecy and impunity. Torture rears its head when the legal barriers against it are barred. Torture feeds on discrimination and fear. Torture gains ground when official condemnation of it is less than absolute.” The pictures of detainees in US custody in Abu Ghraib, Iraq, show that what was true 30 years ago remains true today.

Despite the near-universal outrage generated by the photographs coming out of Abu Ghraib, and the evidence suggesting that such practices are being applied to other prisoners held by the USA in Afghanistan, Guantánamo and elsewhere, neither the US administration nor the US Congress has called for a full and independent investigation.

Instead, the US government has gone to great lengths to restrict the application of the Geneva Conventions and to “re-define” torture. It has sought to justify the use of coercive interrogation techniques, the practice of holding “ghost detainees” (people in unacknowledged incommunicado detention) and the "rendering" or handing over of prisoners to third countries known to practise torture. The detention facility at Guantánamo Bay has become the gulag of our times, entrenching the practice of arbitrary and indefinite detention in violation of international law. Trials by military commissions have made a mockery of justice and due process.

The USA, as the unrivalled political, military and economic hyper-power, sets the tone for governmental behaviour worldwide. When the most powerful country in the world thumbs its nose at the rule of law and human rights, it grants a licence to others to commit abuse with impunity and audacity. From Israel to Uzbekistan, Egypt to Nepal, governments have openly defied human rights and international humanitarian law in the name of national security and “counter-terrorism”.

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[MMMMMM]

I didn't say AI never castigated those other countries for abuses--I'm just observing that it seems odd and misplaced to compare Gitmo to Gulags, and make such an issue out of it when there are far larger and more pressing issues.

Also, I definitely don't necessarily agree with AI's premises that the US is thumbing its nose at law and human rights. I think many facets of this Gitmo issue are debatable, including the legality; whereas the evils of ACTUAL gulags are very clear-cut and not debatable.

[bdk3clash]

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I'm just observing that it seems odd and misplaced to compare Gitmo to Gulags...

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Read the report, or read the four paragraphs I excerpted from it. The comparison to a gulag is neither odd nor misplaced.

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...and make such an issue out of it...

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Again, this is absolutely the right-wing echo chamber at work. There has been an inordinate amount of attention placed on one entirely justifiable and correct sentence, taken out of context[/i], in a report that raises serious issues. Rather than deal with (or even acknowledge) these accusations, neocons revert to their playbook and attack the source as "biased," "unhinged," "anti-American," and God-forbid, "liberal..."

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Also, I definitely don't necessarily agree with AI's premises that the US is thumbing its nose at law and human rights.

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This does not surprise me. You really can't have it both ways--on the one hand you're claiming that invoking the term "gulag" is inappropriate because the scale of human rights violations in the gulag was much greater, and on the other hand you claim that we're not even violating human rights, and that we're not "thumbing [our] nose at law and human rights."

I'm going to quote again, this time limiting myself to two paragraphs. If you disagree with any of the following, let us know:

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Instead, the US government has gone to great lengths to restrict the application of the Geneva Conventions and to “re-define” torture. It has sought to justify the use of coercive interrogation techniques, the practice of holding “ghost detainees” (people in unacknowledged incommunicado detention) and the "rendering" or handing over of prisoners to third countries known to practise torture. The detention facility at Guantánamo Bay has become the gulag of our times, entrenching the practice of arbitrary and indefinite detention in violation of international law. Trials by military commissions have made a mockery of justice and due process.

The USA, as the unrivalled political, military and economic hyper-power, sets the tone for governmental behaviour worldwide. When the most powerful country in the world thumbs its nose at the rule of law and human rights, it grants a licence to others to commit abuse with impunity and audacity. From Israel to Uzbekistan, Egypt to Nepal, governments have openly defied human rights and international humanitarian law in the name of national security and “counter-terrorism”.

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[MMMMMM]

I don't think you read exactly what I wrote. I didn't claim the US is NOT violating rights--I said it's debatable.

The final paragraph you cited again contains a number of debatable assertions. And again, calling Gitmo "the gulag of our time" is simply misleading and out-of-proper-scale.

[OtisTheMarsupial]

what he [kurto] said