Conversation I had with Chef.

[CarlosChadha]

Hi,

I would say a true steal is a hand that when reraised, you would throw away. So something like 3 overcards is something I would always put in the semi bluff catagory. I think a good rule of thumb in a tightly structured game like party's 5-10 through 20-40 the only time that you would do this kind of steal is if you are heads up with the bring in, or maybe one off the bring in, and then only against tight players. I hardly ever do such a steal in those games, but when I do I make sure that I have something to fall back on when called (still throwing them away for a raise of course) like 2 over cards, or an overcard and a 2 flush.

In higher limit games like 30-60, 50-100, and 75-150 with larger antes I still only rarely do these steals. One good time to do such a steal is when you have some of your opponent's cards in the hole, making it less likely that they have a pair, and making it easy for you to dump the hand if you get reraised (but if they just call they are more likely to have a drawing hand like a 3 flush, so you might want to bluff again on 4th if they rag off). An example would be if you have a jack up with a 7 and a queen in the hole and there is just a 7 and a queen left to act you might want to steal vs. tight players. Another similar play that I have only used a couple times against good players (semi-tight, aggressive) is restealing from them when I have their card in the hole. Interestingly I have found that this is MOST effective when they have a very large card up (perferably an Ace) because the larger their up card, the more likely that they will have junk in the hole, plus the more credit they give you for a big hand (again, I need an Ace in the hole to do this).

One more note about stealing: it really helps if the cards of your suit are live, making it much easier for you to catch scary suited cards that will win you the pot on 4th or 5th.

Regards,
Carlos

[bygmesterf]

[ QUOTE ]

Chef went on to say something to the effect of "No, you really don't have to steal at tight 10/20 ante structure, you just have to play solid".


[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, 10/20, and 5/10 are usually strucutre very tightly compared to higher limit stud games (Or online 3/6 which is structued like 30/60).

One you move to 15/30 and up, if you arent stealing enough antes they will gradually eat in your stack. 20/40 is usually the borderline ($3 Ante/$5 Bringin = $29 in antes for a $20 bet), with 30/60 ($5/$10 $50 in antes vs $30 bet), 40/80 (10/10 $90 in antes vs a $40 bet) and 75/150 (15/25 $145 in antes vs $75 bet) as the games where you must get your share of the antes or you will go broke.

This is what makes high limit stud so interesting compared to high limit hold'em: playing tight preflop is not enough.

[bholdr]

[ QUOTE ]
5/10 has the same structure as 10/20

[/ QUOTE ]

oh yeah. duh. you get my point though, in a low ante game, maybe only steal when the situation is perfect, rather than not steal at all, or steal a lot.

thought i was reading 7cs today and browsed over the section on tight games- one comment was that a good player can 'acheive an excellent winrate' simply due to all the steals that people let them pull. i don't steal much unless it's really tight, at any level- i've never been in a cash game where i thought i could base base my winnings on stolen antes.

[vintage_sara]

I don't think that's true. Don't you have to relatively invest more to attempt to steal the antes?

[beta1607]

[ QUOTE ]
Trying to be too aggressive without the "goods" costs money that you just don't need to give away.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well said, and is especially true against many of the loose passive 5/10 players who like to call down with hands like (T2)2.

[Andy B]

$10/20 has a small enough ante structure that if you never steal the antes, you're not giving up very much. I'm assuming that the game on Party is loose enough that this isn't much of an issue, but my statement holds for a tighter game as well. That said, you should still look for advantageous opportunities.

[Bartholow]

Good post. I agree 100%. The term steal is misleading, but you should certainly do a lot of semi-bluffing in a lot of situations in stud, including 3rd street.

[Roland]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think that's true. Don't you have to relatively invest more to attempt to steal the antes?

[/ QUOTE ]

You win. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]
On the other hand, although you have to invest more to try and steal the antes, you will be successful more often – so doesn’t that mean you should be stealing a little more at $10/$20 regardless?

[vintage_sara]

Thank you. I like to win. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Maybe in some games but on-line...NO Way! Unless it's you I am stealing from of course. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] I actually had to tighten up my play on line verses how I play in a casino because there's so little value in semi-bluffs and bluffs, unless you really know your player. They just don't work on here very often. Playing correctly according to the structure is very important. Some of these people are on auto call. They aren't thinking about your hand they only see their cards and they want to think you are bluffing--all the time--it's amazing. They think because you just raised with split aces and win a hand and on the very next hand when you have kings and raise with a King in the door you can't possibly have two big hands back to back. Online people can't see you, they don't know who you are. In fact, it could be a totally different people playing on the same account on any given day. I always watch my opponents to see if they may be playing differently.

At least in a live game, you can have a "real" image that goes beyond play and chat...through posture, looks, gender, accent..you get the idea.

Playing correctly according to the structure is so critical and quite frankly the vast majority just don't understand how much so. When the structure is tight like a 10-20 game that means you really can afford to wait for the "goods." You see three cards so cheap relative to the payoff if it goes to the river. Third street is the most critical street in stud but I am sure you know that.

If you are an expert, you could be losing some EV by not stealing more or not playing more marginal hands against weak opponents because you will know when to get off your hands and punish them when you make it. But, how much more EV are you getting and how big of swings are you willing to take? And, are you willing to have good players notice these hands and give you less respect at those times when you need them to give you more? Or, do you decide the extra action you might even get from good players will go up when you are holding the stone cold nuts?

Those are decisions each player needs to make for him or herself. I think you know where I stand.

In more loosely structured games, you have to play faster to survive. The percentage of stealing has to be determined by the texture of the game but mathematically you need to do it more (whatever that means).