About overcards (long)

[ckessel]

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Hand 3 I bet simply because so many people peel one on the flop.

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This is true and since I have a hard time judging when someone is just peeling one off to follow up by folding to a turn bet I end up betting all these turns. I believe you could, by looking at the board texture and adding a read on the opponent, find some cases where checking is better in these situations.

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True. Sometimes I'll look at my poker edge stats and see how often they fold at the flop/turn. If they have a high turn fold, then it's an easy bet. If they see most rivers, it's a check.

I don't really do enough of that though, it's something I think to check after the play [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]. HU though I'm just about always betting the turn just because I think I'll steal enough pots that it'll be worthwhile. If there's 4BB in the post, I only need to be successful 20% of the time. And the other 80% of the time I'm still going to win once in a while when I pull my river pair.

[chief444]

Generally, I'm likely to continue betting A-high against very loose opponents when it has a reasonable chance of being best. You give no reads here so I have no comments other than for hand 2 bad players bet draws into preflop raisers all the time.

[Nick Royale]

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Generally, I'm likely to continue betting A-high against very loose opponents when it has a reasonable chance of being best. You give no reads here so I have no comments other than for hand 2 bad players bet draws into preflop raisers all the time.

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I gave no read that the player was bad (I wanted to look at the situation more like how to think about them in general, maybe by adding how different read effects the decision). But you are right, bad players bet draws here. In this case he betted the flush draw with Ax[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] in his hands. I folded incorrect. The turn completed the flush, not that it makes the fold better...

[waynethetrain]

The biggest problem I have playing overcards (there are several) is when I am first to act.

I generally only bet when I have 1 or 2 opponents unless I have other strong draws going besides the overcards.

However, assuming all I have is AK/AQ after the flop, the board is semi ragged and I have either 1 or 2 opponents, I will bet. If I get called by 1 or both opponents, I think it becomes fairly likely that one of them has a pair unless I see some kind of draw on the board.

The question then becomes do I bet the turn looking to drive out a draw or weak pair or do I check. It seems to me that many of the micro players will call down with weak pairs. So very often all I am doing in throwing in an extra BB while behind without accomplishing much.

Then I am faced with an even more difficult decision on the river. If I check UI, I am announcing that all I have is overcards. That leaves me vulnerable to a bet which could be a bluff and a difficult decision about calling or folding UI.

I am starting to wonder if it makes more sense to check the turn and fold if bet into. It's rather weak, but I could occasionally check raise the turn with strong hands to keep the bluffs at bay. I think at the micro limits it's very difficult to drive players off those weak pairs and they have them often enough for the turn bet to at least be suspect.

[Knuckles]

I am trying to improve my post flop play, and I don't understand completely why betting your flush draw is a mistake here. So please excuse my potential hijacking of this thread.

What is the correct play on this flop for a player with Ax[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]? You are out of position with two players behind you. You have two options intially on this flop, check or bet.

Betting here would appear to be a semibluff, while your hand does not appear to be best at the moment there is a good chance for it to improve. Also it is possible that betting here would cause someone to fold an ace with a better kicker. The downside of this is that the original bettor can raise, which may force the third player out. Also you could get stuck in the middle of a betting war with the other two players.

Checking with the intention of raising now seems like the better option. It is unlikely you have the best hand, so if it checks through it is not a huge problem. Checking with the intention of raising allows you to pontentially extract an extract an extra bet out the third opponent when/if the original better fires into the pot. Is my reasoning correct here?

[chief444]

I didn't even mean specifically this hand or Ax. I just meant generally bad players misplay draws pretty often...betting when they should check, calling when they should raise, etc. And one thing they do often is just bet into a preflop raiser with a draw and then go into check/call mode unimproved after a flop raise. I didn't mean it was never correct to do so. Just more an observation. On this flop if the preflop raiser was very tight and may fold say...AK [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] ...then obviously betting can't be too bad. But honestly against a thinking opponent check/raising AND leading the turn is a better semibluff. Betting/3-betting the flop is a better semibluff. Basically, if you're hoping to get a better, thinking, opponent to lay a hand down then you need to represent a strong hand by playing it as you would a strong hand. But I see a simple bet/call the flop...check/call the turn here from a bad opponent and I expect to be against a draw a good portion of the time.

[Jonny Melon]

Hi Nick:
In Hand 2, just a thought: You are more likely to be ahead on a draw-heavy board, than you are on a draw-free board. You shouldn't fold here.

Jon

[Knuckles]

Thank you for the clarification I understand what you are saying better now.

[Nick Royale]

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Hi Nick:
In Hand 2, just a thought: You are more likely to be ahead on a draw-heavy board, than you are on a draw-free board. You shouldn't fold here.

Jon

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Call or raise?

It's good I posted this since it got me sstarting to thin more about these situation. In hand 2 it feels like raising is spewing since I have no backdoors, the board is coordinated and the pot is not very big. To call feels wrong since I don't have enough outs to draw and the board is coordinated and maybe tainting my outs. At the same time my hand might be best just because the texture of the board. Call and hope he checks the turn as an indication of a draw or raise to take control. Calling the flop followed by calling the turn UI is impossible.

[Nick Royale]

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The question then becomes do I bet the turn looking to drive out a draw or weak pair or do I check. It seems to me that many of the micro players will call down with weak pairs. So very often all I am doing in throwing in an extra BB while behind without accomplishing much.

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many players at the micros calls to the turn just to see if they get lucky also. By betting the turn you're likely to charge their draws and buy a free showdown with a hand with showdown value.

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Then I am faced with an even more difficult decision on the river. If I check UI, I am announcing that all I have is overcards. That leaves me vulnerable to a bet which could be a bluff and a difficult decision about calling or folding UI.


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This is a tough spot and it's depending on the texture of the board and a read on villain. I check/fold more often than I check/call.

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It's rather weak, but I could occasionally check raise the turn with strong hands to keep the bluffs at bay.

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I was also thinking that at first. The first book i read before playing 0.5-1 was HPFAP [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]. Don't give the too much credit. (still, smoot hcalling a flop raise and check/raise the turn is often good).