KQs on flush draw K flop against early raiser (Party 55) - Page 2

nokona13 · #11 05-26-2005, 07:00 PM

I think it should be obvious that check-calling two min bets and then essentially checking/min-raising a river minbet just cannot be the correct way to play any hand, ever.

Personally I like to lead this here on the flop, maybe 100. With his stack size, it's impossible for him to not give you odds. The worst possible case on the flop is that he has black kings, in which case you're about 2.5:1 against, in which case you're slightly -EV with about 2:1 pot odds, but anything else you're either ahead or clearly have odds to draw, so you're not going anywhere. If he just called the flop, then the ace is bad for you. I could see check/calling, check/folding, c/r, or leading turn, depending on opponent. Have to assume opponenet isn't solid with the UTG min-raise, so maybe a check/call assuming either you're ahead of JJ/QQ or will get paid off if you hit the flush? Not confident about that at all. Against a strong opponent who'd made a real raise pre-flop, I'd probably lead again for 2/3-3/4 pot.

Seadood228 · #12 05-26-2005, 07:37 PM

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Personally I like to lead this here on the flop, maybe 100. With his stack size, it's impossible for him to not give you odds. The worst possible case on the flop is that he has black kings, in which case you're about 2.5:1 against, in which case you're slightly -EV with about 2:1 pot odds, but anything else you're either ahead or clearly have odds to draw, so you're not going anywhere. If he just called the flop, then the ace is bad for you. I could see check/calling, check/folding, c/r, or leading turn, depending on opponent. Have to assume opponenet isn't solid with the UTG min-raise, so maybe a check/call assuming either you're ahead of JJ/QQ or will get paid off if you hit the flush? Not confident about that at all. Against a strong opponent who'd made a real raise pre-flop, I'd probably lead again for 2/3-3/4 pot.

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What does leading the flop accomplish other than getting 0 for your big hand when ahead, and having to put extra $$$ in when you are behind?

Seadood228 · #13 05-26-2005, 07:43 PM

If he bets 270 I'd have to reluctantly call with my 9 live outs and 5 more possible. The river is a much tougher decision.

But remember this type of scenario will only happen 6.5% of the time.

[EDIT] I forgot you owned the Ah. It'll happen aboout 5% of the time.

nokona13 · #14 05-26-2005, 07:48 PM

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What does leading the flop accomplish other than getting 0 for your big hand when ahead, and having to put extra $$$ in when you are behind?

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Well presumably you sometimes flop other types of hands. What if you held 88 here? You can't bet your made hands and check/call your flush draws. I think check/calling or c/r trips here is also poor. Could you be losing some money from TT by betting 3/4 pot here? Sure. But if you check call two 3/4 pot bets and villain's been paying attention, he's gonna get you squarely on the flush draw and you're not gonna get paid if you hit.

Seadood228 · #15 05-26-2005, 08:04 PM

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But if you check call two 3/4 pot bets and villain's been paying attention, he's gonna get you squarely on the flush draw and you're not gonna get paid if you hit.

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errr.. TT already paid you off by putting two 3/4 pot bets in with the worst hand. Would he have done that if you led? What hands does leading the flop benefit in this situation?

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You can't bet your made hands and check/call your flush draws.

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I'm not advocating check/calling all FDs, nor all made hands. It's just the right play for this particular situation. If the board had been 3 rags with a FD, I'd be much more apt to bet or checkraise. In this particular situation there is absolutely 0 point to it unless you either a)put your opponent on KJ/KT or b)are trying to defend against a 2 outer. The flop bet will make you no money, unless you are already behind.

nokona13 · #16 05-27-2005, 01:55 PM

The thing is, you haven't extracted crap by check calling until the river and then check minraising the river. We got 150 chips from villain with the second nut here. That's just not very good. Bet out, give him a chance to call more than 30 chips. Against a passive min-bettor like this, you're much more likely to get him to call too many chips than bet too many for you.