Big draw

[Nick Royale]

[ QUOTE ]
Your flop raise is good. Your equity in the hand is conservatively about 50% on the flop. Easy raise.


[/ QUOTE ]
I can't agree with this. Reasons:
- you want to get bet into if you hit your draw.
- the pot is small, buying outs isn't worth much.
- you have a strong draw that wins the pot the vast majority of the time when it hits, thus you want players to extract bets from when you hit and by raising you'll be folding players since you're giving them poor odds.

[sy_or_bust]

Not capping the river is bad. Looks like SB hoped to check/raise you with his 2 pair/set, not understanding your play. If he does have a flush, it'll virtually never beat you (he could be completing virtually any two hearts preflop).

Unless you have a stone cold read that SB won't 3-bet without the nuts, you're capping.

[twang]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Your flop raise is good. Your equity in the hand is conservatively about 50% on the flop. Easy raise.


[/ QUOTE ]
I can't agree with this. Reasons:
- you want to get bet into if you hit your draw.
- the pot is small, buying outs isn't worth much.
- you have a strong draw that wins the pot the vast majority of the time when it hits, thus you want players to extract bets from when you hit and by raising you'll be folding players since you're giving them poor odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

The reason I raised the flop was that although I had outs a plenty, none was the bank. The 8 would have given any Q a straight; the Queen would have given AK the nut straight (not likely though, given the PF action) or any K a shared pot; the King would have given me a only medium-strong top pair or someone a bigger straight; my flush draw was "only" 2nd nut etc.

So in the heat of the moment I figured I had many outs, but that I'd rather clear out some possible threats than playing it slow. I'm starting to doubt that this was the best line.

Regarding the river: I had no read. I figured he had any two hearts or was just semi-bluffing with a pair or two. When he made it 3, I chickened out and ducked for the Ace.

/twang

[zram21]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Your flop raise is good. Your equity in the hand is conservatively about 50% on the flop. Easy raise.


[/ QUOTE ]
I can't agree with this. Reasons:
- you want to get bet into if you hit your draw.
- the pot is small, buying outs isn't worth much.
- you have a strong draw that wins the pot the vast majority of the time when it hits, thus you want players to extract bets from when you hit and by raising you'll be folding players since you're giving them poor odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess I agree with this. Although I will say if just one more player calls the raise (which isn't unlikely at 2/4) then the same amount of monye goes into the pot as limping and you clean up some outs.

And while you want to be bet into when you hit, you would also liked to be checked to when you miss to take the free card. So all in all my comment of "easy raise" may have been a bit too strong, but I think it certainly has some merit.

[shadow29]

I don't think that it has as much merit as you might think.

This hand is sort of different (nut instead of second nut) but I think it still applies:

[ QUOTE ]
Suppose you have

A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
under the gun and you limp in a loose, but passive $.5-$1 game. Three players limp behind you, the small blind completes and the big blind checks, leaving 6 small bets and 6 players. The flop comes

K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
The small blind checks and the big blind bets. What do you do?

Many micro limit players instinctively raise here, as they vaguely remember something about a pot equity edge that flush draws have. While this edge is real, raising here is not correct. Raising might potentially knock out the three limpers behind you, as well as the small blind, since this flop is rather ragged and a raise forces four remaining players to call two cold, potentially leaving you heads up. Thus, you would no longer have a pot equity edge, but a pot equity deficit. Moreover, raising could leave you open to an expensive 3-bet if the villain has a ragged two pair or a set. Paying 1.5 big bets to see the turn heads up is not a favorable situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Taken from my article on <a http://www.twoplustwo.com/magazine/issue4/anderson0405.html" target="_blank">Selective Aggression</a>.

There was also a discussion in the Magazine Forum about that hand. Basically, the conclusion was that it's worth sacrificing a little bit of expectation in order to win a big pot.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold preflop, I just call the flop. Turn is good, river I cap readless.

[/ QUOTE ]

Folding preflop sucks. This is a fine time to limp.

I'd call the flop, turn, and raise the river.

Rob

[zram21]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think that it has as much merit as you might think.

This hand is sort of different (nut instead of second nut) but I think it still applies:

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW I am certain you are correct because I am quite certain you play better than I do. However I am still not quite seeing why the raise is bad here. In the example hand you gave if everyone folds you no longer have an equity edge. In this hand our hero likely has an equity edge even heads up.

In addition the line hero took ended up getting 6 BB in the pot on the turn. If he had just called and everyone called we still would have only ended up with 6 BB in the pot. Then if he hits on the turn and raises the COs likely bet the filed is getting 4:1 with only 1 card to come. I think it is more likely they would call the flop raise than the turn raise. You also have virtually no shot at a free card if the turn is a blank by calling the flop.

Again I am sure you are correct, but it seems to me the decision is at least close. The fact that your equity goes up quite a bit by losing some of those players on the flop seems to suggest that if raising is wrong it can't be very wrong and is still +EV. Am I missing something obvious?

[Nick Royale]

[ QUOTE ]
Although I will say if just one more player calls the raise (which isn't unlikely at 2/4) then the same amount of monye goes into the pot

[/ QUOTE ]
But a higher percentage of the money that goes into the por is from you. That's important to consider.

[Nick Royale]

[ QUOTE ]
The reason I raised the flop was that although I had outs a plenty, none was the bank. The 8 would have given any Q a straight; the Queen would have given AK the nut straight (not likely though, given the PF action) or any K a shared pot; the King would have given me a only medium-strong top pair or someone a bigger straight; my flush draw was "only" 2nd nut etc.

[/ QUOTE ]
When you decide to just limp you play this hand almost only b/c of its flush and straight value. Thus you should not worry about someone holding a Q since when you hit your flush/straight you have them beat. And as you say AK isn't likely.

[Piiop]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold preflop

[/ QUOTE ]

You confuse me.

I this hand, you want to fold K7s preflop on the button after 3 limpers at 2/4.

In a different hand, you wanted to raise K8o out of the SB after 2 posters checked at 3/6.

I realize they're two different situations, but it seems like if you're doing one you would do the other and if you're not doing one you wouldn't do the other.