AKo misses

[kyro]

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however, i don't see why if you think that QQ-AA would checkraise this flop that 99-JJ would not as well, it seems intuitive that both sets of hands should be played pretty much the same way in this spot.

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The first three have a much better chance of being ahead of another overpair than the second three. I'm not saying this is correct thinking, but merely what villain may be thinking. The problem is (which I realized afterwards) is that this makes a push all in more correct. Right?

[Newt_Buggs]

he has 360 left and there's a 655, and he knows that you didn't hit the flop-I think that you have to call this. In the future though don't put yourself in the situation and raise less. If your table is really bad you could always raise more (something like 400+) and just plan on calling/pushing the rest of it since you will always have odds to.

[adanthar]

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my problem is that i think that while you are likely behind, and i'm agreeing with a medium pair assessment, you're about 25% to win the hand against a medium pair, and i think you might need to take the odds given you, though they are worse than the odds you need, because being as short as you would be otherwise is not great.

however, i don't see why if you think that QQ-AA would checkraise this flop that 99-JJ would not as well, it seems intuitive that both sets of hands should be played pretty much the same way in this spot.

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I like your post in general but disagree with two things:

1)You can still relatively easily come back from a t450 stack at level 2, so if he flashed me JJ, as opposed to some chance of AQ, I'd fold;

2)JJ doesn't checkraise here because a terrified, weak/tight opponent who limp/calls JJ early just wants the AK to fold already.

(2.5) People who limp JJ PF are weak/tight pansies and frankly deserve what they get when the AK feels pot committed, calls and sucks out on the river, as opposed to when he calls a raise and folds on the flop.)

(3)Why the hell did you raise that much PF)

[citanul]

adanthar,

i agree with you on all fronts. in part my reasoning is/was trying to follow through with the line that the hero chooses by making the raise so big preflop.

you're on a bit of a tear lately about playing JJ preflop. do you raise in lp with jj behind 4-5 limpers in lvl or 2? i find this to be more interesting than the utg question, personally.

i guess that yeah, 450 is not so horrible to come back from, particularly if this is an 800 chip game (i can't remember if it is right now, but i think it is). i've been spending a lot of my time lately that i've been spending thinking about the game thinking about spots where you hit "inflection points" or whatnot as the short stack, and should take less than good odds to try to get your way back into the game as a reasonable stack.

but that's for another thread on another day.

good to see you posting a bit more in teh last couple days.

citanul

[dfscott]

Ok, a bit more info.

1) This is a 22 (forgot to post that).

2) I sized my pre-flop raise using the (3+(2*limpers))*BB formula. At a 33, I might not raise so much, but at the 22s and below, I wanted a sizable bet to chase out the weak limpers.

3) I pushed the flop (not really relevant unless you're just dying to know what UTG had).

[kyro]

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3) I pushed the flop (not really relevant unless you're just dying to know what UTG had).

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My money's on JJ. Tell me I'm wrong and he had 32o.

[nokona13]

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my problem is that i think that while you are likely behind, and i'm agreeing with a medium pair assessment, you're about 25% to win the hand against a medium pair, and i think you might need to take the odds given you, though they are worse than the odds you need, because being as short as you would be otherwise is not great.

however, i don't see why if you think that QQ-AA would checkraise this flop that 99-JJ would not as well, it seems intuitive that both sets of hands should be played pretty much the same way in this spot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like your post in general but disagree with two things:

1)You can still relatively easily come back from a t450 stack at level 2, so if he flashed me JJ, as opposed to some chance of AQ, I'd fold;

2)JJ doesn't checkraise here because a terrified, weak/tight opponent who limp/calls JJ early just wants the AK to fold already.

(2.5) People who limp JJ PF are weak/tight pansies and frankly deserve what they get when the AK feels pot committed, calls and sucks out on the river, as opposed to when he calls a raise and folds on the flop.)

(3)Why the hell did you raise that much PF)

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adanthar, I'm interested in (2) and (2.5) here. UTG on level 2, I'm still in fold 22-44 and limp 55-JJ mode. Though I might c/r push JJ vs. a BB raise to 275, thinking the odds of AK-AJ are pretty big at this buy in. Do you consistently raise JJ UTG on level 2? Do you find that optimal?

[dfscott]

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3) I pushed the flop (not really relevant unless you're just dying to know what UTG had).

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My money's on JJ. Tell me I'm wrong and he had 32o.

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I'll reveal his hand once the thread dies down -- it's generated more discussion than I expected, and I don't want to give out info that I didn't have. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[citanul]

sizing your raises to roughly 3bb+1.5 or 2x(limpers limped chips) is all well and good as a guideline, but yeah, there's other things you need to take into account. the guideline is particularly good when basically it's a deepish stacked game and everyone has normalish sized stacks. the second that any player who is semi involved with the hand or is left to act behind you has either a really big stack or a small stack or anything like that, you have to start thinking in more than one way about your raise sizes.

particularly when you're putting >~1/3 of your stack in. personally i like to start really really paying attention when i'm putting in more than 1/5 or so of my stack or when i'm putting in >~1/3 of any opponent in the hand's stack. but again, those are more just like, random numbers than they should be considered hard and fast rules of any type. personally i also tend to veer closer to the 1.5 end of the 1.5 to 2x spectrum in all cases, though meh, that's not incredibly important.

i think rather than considering a formula, it's important to think of things like

how many chips am i putting in as a fraction of my stack?
how many chips am i putting in as a fraction of my likely opponents' stacks?
how often am i going to want to continue with my hand post flop?
ie, how likely do i think i'm going to be in good shape post flop?
where am i sitting?
what odds am i going to be getting on the flop assuming 1 or 2 or whatever callers if i raise this amount?

stuff like that is way more important to me than following a formula.

personally i again, find that formula to be best at the 800 chip games in lvl 1 with whatever number of limpers, the 800 chip games at lvl 2 with up to 2 limpers, and the 1000 chip games in lvl 1 and 2. beyond that, i think that you have to get a little more thinking about raises.

citanul

[citanul]

haha, you said "do you find that optimal."

i believe adanthar's response is going to say something like "why the [censored] are you folding 22-44?" and "yes, i'm raising JJ utg every time."

though i could be wrong.

citanul