AJ utg

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
I was wondering what people do in situations like these, and with AT with 8-10bb's 5-6 handed.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t150 (7 handed) converter

Button (t535)
SB (t550)
BB (t1900)
Hero (t1570)
MP1 (t2815)
MP2 (t2225)
CO (t3905)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">Hero...</font>

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It's very close here. With your hand face up, moving allin is probably slightly -EV, but it's very close (My numbers have 9.1x the BB as breakeven EV with AJ face up). Your advantage in the late stages against these opponents is probably greater than any edge you can gain with this hand, thus I think folding is a reasonable option. With 1300 chips I'd move allin.

Note that moving allin is almost surely +chip ev (but not by very much), because most hands won't call you with stuff like 22-66, and sometimes the shortstacks will call with dominated hands also.

[citanul]

I too would fold here, especially in the hand as posted. I think that well, curtains explained why exactly, but with AT and even stacks at say, 100/200, i'd push with my cards face up i think. So it's close. If it was say, 5 handed, 75/150 blinds, and even stacks, i'd probably push there too with 10 bet, with either AT or AJ. So yeah, it does depend on the details. 7 handed v 5 handed, even stacks v mixed stacks, etc, all matter. also matters what you've been doing lately, and what the people behind you have been doing, and how easy stealing is, basically.

I am rather curious about why when you wanted to ask a question about AT utg with 5 or 6 players, you posted a hand with AJ an 7 players...?

citanul

[Karak567]

I fold here and it's not even close. AJ is a weak hand 7 handed or whatever this is.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
I fold here and it's not even close. AJ is a weak hand 7 handed or whatever this is.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately Karak it is close. Maybe you would fold every time, but the EV between pushing and folding is going to be quite close in value.

[Karak567]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I fold here and it's not even close. AJ is a weak hand 7 handed or whatever this is.

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Unfortunately Karak it is close. Maybe you would fold every time, but the EV between pushing and folding is going to be quite close in value.

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Eh, I just think with 10x BB and a while till it hits him again AND the ability to hold on for a couple orbits there is absolutely no reason to take a chance on AJ.

That's what I meant when it wasn't close.

Wasn't thinking EV, hmmm... Maybe I'm just leaking?

[curtains]

No it's no big deal. But It's close enough where if I was one seat closer to the button, I wouldn't fold the hand. I don't even see this as taking a chance with AJ, I would play it because I know for sure that it's +EV to push 3 off the button with these cards and 10x the BB. I admit it's close but I don't mind pushing thin edges that I know for sure are +EV.

(btw I just ran it on eastbay's. The great thing about pushing AJo 3 off the button, is that the hand gets stronger the LOOSER the calling range gets. Basically the looser people will call you, the more often you want to push, which is pretty rare in one of these pushing situations. If the range is

66+,ATs+,AJo+

Then its +.2% EV

However if the range is:

44+,A7s+,A9o+,KJs+

Then its +.4% EV



Note that against the tight range it's -EV to push with AJo from 4 off the button (To the tune of -.1 EV), as my magical chart had already predicted [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[erniebilko]

In this situation (UTG) I would also fold. For me, this would not be a tough decision with a decent stack; obviously, the shorter the stack the more likely i would be to push all-in, but there is no immediate necessity here to get into a confrontation.

I would like to ask a question of the ICM proponents. I can accept that pushing with AJo here would be +EV, but does that necessarily mean it is the best thing to do? If I understand the concept (and that's not a given!), the model just looks at the hand in question in isolation. Shouldn't we take into account the "opportunity benefit" of waiting for a better hand to win chips in a less risky fashion? If this has been asked before, I apologize for the repetition - just point me to the original thread please.

[Voltron87]

This is push fold, and it's close. If this is a passive table like everyone is complaining about recently I push.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
In this situation (UTG) I would also fold. For me, this would not be a tough decision with a decent stack; obviously, the shorter the stack the more likely i would be to push all-in, but there is no immediate necessity here to get into a confrontation.

I would like to ask a question of the ICM proponents. I can accept that pushing with AJo here would be +EV, but does that necessarily mean it is the best thing to do? If I understand the concept (and that's not a given!), the model just looks at the hand in question in isolation. Shouldn't we take into account the "opportunity benefit" of waiting for a better hand to win chips in a less risky fashion? If this has been asked before, I apologize for the repetition - just point me to the original thread please.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think pushing here is probably not +EV, but either breakeven or very slightly -EV. You are correct that when it's VERY close you may want to pass up the oppurtunity. My above post stated that I'd push if I was one seat closer to the button.

btw I might not push but instead make a smaller raise (400-450) with the idea of calling a reraise, or folding to two raises. This is highlighted by the fact that AJo fares better against a larger range than a smaller range. You will get a larger range by raising to 400-450, and a smaller range by opening allin.

[DCJ311]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In this situation (UTG) I would also fold. For me, this would not be a tough decision with a decent stack; obviously, the shorter the stack the more likely i would be to push all-in, but there is no immediate necessity here to get into a confrontation.

I would like to ask a question of the ICM proponents. I can accept that pushing with AJo here would be +EV, but does that necessarily mean it is the best thing to do? If I understand the concept (and that's not a given!), the model just looks at the hand in question in isolation. Shouldn't we take into account the "opportunity benefit" of waiting for a better hand to win chips in a less risky fashion? If this has been asked before, I apologize for the repetition - just point me to the original thread please.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think pushing here is probably not +EV, but either breakeven or very slightly -EV. You are correct that when it's VERY close you may want to pass up the oppurtunity. My above post stated that I'd push if I was one seat closer to the button.

btw I might not push but instead make a smaller raise (400-450) with the idea of calling a reraise, or folding to two raises. This is highlighted by the fact that AJo fares better against a larger range than a smaller range. You will get a larger range by raising to 400-450, and a smaller range by opening allin.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol curtains if your just going to call a reraise why not go allin yourself to begin with?? thats what it says in super system. no offense but your post was kinda dum.