KJo meets huge pot

[daveymck]

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why you didn't bet the flop is baffling me

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See my explanation a few posts above. Do you feel that this concept doesn't apply here? If so, why?


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The bit you quoted said raise, you were looking to bet, and I suspect also has a stronger hand that could possibly stand to give a cheap card to the field. Here you might have the best hand at this point, yes noone is folding for one bet (but give them the chance too not infinite odds to draw out with their A2 and worse) but I dont think you can stand giving 6 opponants a free card and there is no guarentee you will get your chance to raise on the turn.

If a scare card comes or if everyone has checked to you again you are only slightly better off and have not defined your hand.

If UTG had led the betting and lots of callers had come between you that might be the time to forgo the raise.

[PotatoStew]

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The bit you quoted said raise, you were looking to bet

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No, I am looking to raise, because I'm expecting UTG+1 to bet into me on the turn. On the flop, I'm deferring a bet, but that's technically the same thing as deferring a raise in this case -- a bet is simply raising a bet of zero.

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but give them the chance too not infinite odds to draw out with their A2 and worse

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I understand what you're saying about infinite odds, but with this pot size, a bet may as well be infinite odds, for all intents and purposes. Only two outs are needed to have the odds to draw (or one out, if you consider that there are two cards to come) so it's correct to draw to just about anything. There is no way I can induce a mistake on the flop.

The idea is to pass up a small edge now (potentially having the best hand) in order to exploit a larger edge later (potentially taking away my opponents odds to draw to their hands). If I bet the flop, I will get called AND I will build the pot, giving everyone odds to stay in to the river. If I check now, and bet or raise the turn, sure I give infinite odds on the flop, but I have the chance to take away their odds on the turn.

[27offsooot]

What about value? What hands do you hope to get out on the turn that would've called on the flop? You do realize that ur position to protect against UTG+1 is not ideal and that there is no guarantee he will bet the turn.

[lil']

The pot was big -- no one was folding to one bet.
You don't know that. Someone who may have absolutely noting on this flop, say 7-8s of the wrong suit, could pick up a free draw on the turn that he would be happy to go to the river with because he didn't have to call a flop bet.

As someone else already said, you shouldn't be raising K-Jo there.

Nice pot, though! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[fireman664]

I dont like your preflop raise at all....other than that I like the way you played the hand. Your right, no one is going to fold to your flop bet, and by checking then getting bet into you force the field to call 2 BB colds.

results?

[TheHip41]

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"If the pot is extremely large, forgo a flop raise if doing so increases the chance you will be bet into on the turn."


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The catch is, you aren't "raising" the flop, you are betting the flop. If you had AK, and it was 3 handed, and someone bets into you on a trash board, I can see 'waiting until the turn to raise', but on this, just bet.

On another note, your preflop and flop actions do not work well together. I mean, why are you raising KJo preflop after 4 limpers? to build a pot when you hit. I think a K9x flop is what you want.

What flop are you going to bet if you raise PF with KJo if you don't bet this one? T94? 358? A84?

This flop hit you, don't let the Ax draw for free.

[PotatoStew]

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What about value? What hands do you hope to get out on the turn that would've called on the flop?

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Ax or various pocket pairs for instance. All would have odds to call on the flop, but not the turn (unless I build the pot and give them odds to call the turn).

[PotatoStew]

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The pot was big -- no one was folding to one bet.
You don't know that. Someone who may have absolutely noting on this flop, say 7-8s of the wrong suit, could pick up a free draw on the turn that he would be happy to go to the river with because he didn't have to call a flop bet.

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Let me try to clarify something... for those of you who disagree with my flop play: Are you saying that you disagree with the strategy I referenced that Miller is outlining in SSH, or are you saying that you don't think that strategy applies here? And if it doesn't apply here, why doesn't it?

[PotatoStew]

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The catch is, you aren't "raising" the flop, you are betting the flop.

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As I pointed out, technically an initial bet is just raising a bet of zero. Isn't it the same effect?

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f you had AK, and it was 3 handed, and someone bets into you on a trash board, I can see 'waiting until the turn to raise', but on this, just bet.

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Can you explain why that's different? I know one is a "bet" and one is a "raise" but why does that make a difference?

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On another note, your preflop and flop actions do not work well together. I mean, why are you raising KJo preflop after 4 limpers? to build a pot when you hit. I think a K9x flop is what you want.


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I wasn't really raising to build the pot necessarily, I was trying to buy the button. Didn't work. What made things different in my mind, was the limp-reraise... that 3-bet made for a huge pot. If everyone had simply smooth called my PF raise I would have no problem betting out on the flop. The difference here is the size of the pot due to the PF 3-bet.


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What flop are you going to bet if you raise PF with KJo if you don't bet this one? T94? 358? A84?


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This is a good argument, but again, I would have bet with a smaller pot. I really do think the pot size is an important factor here, but I suppose it's possible I'm overestimating the influence it should have on the decision. Where's Ed when you need him?

[Fat Nicky]

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Ax or various pocket pairs for instance. All would have odds to call on the flop, but not the turn (unless I build the pot and give them odds to call the turn).

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So, giving someone holding Ax a free card is much better.