Standard?

[koa]

I don't see how a check raise out of postion of four callers is profitable with a 6 high flush draw? Your not going bluff out 4 players so you will need to hit your flush.

[YoureToast]

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I don't see how a check raise out of postion of four callers is profitable with a 6 high flush draw? Your not going bluff out 4 players so you will need to hit your flush.

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Value bet.

[koa]

I just feel your first goal with a semi bluff is to win the pot without a show down or to gain a free card, since both of these are not happening the best move is to keep your draw as inexpensive as possible. And with check raising here you run the risk of being three bet which is what happen. I don't think getting three bet is that rare especially if the intial better now has a better chance to narrow the field with a raise.

[YoureToast]

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I just feel your first goal with a semi bluff is to win the pot without a show down or to gain a free card.

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Again, the justification for this raise is not that it is a semibluff. You are correct that there is no chance of winning the pot here -- therefore a semibluff is not appropriate...Instead, the justification for betting is that you make money with the bet as long as 2-3 other callers come along for the ride. The risk is that its 3 bet and the others fold (which is generally what happened here)...so therefore whether to call or raise is a function of the probability of the PFR 3-betting and the chances of 2 or 3 others staying in the pot in he does (or doesn't) 3 bet. As Paluka has pointed out, if it is 3 bet and other callers come around, it could be particularly bad since the other callers would more likely in that instance have a better flush draw (but on the other hand your back door straight and straight flush draws may swing the balance the other way). In reality, I probably call here too, but raising is not unreasonable.

[skp]

Paluka,

Is your adverse comment on checkraising with a flush draw in this post made generally or is it with keeping in mind this specific flop of K52?

I too don't like the flop checkraise (but I am only slightly against it) because the flop is K52 and yet the PFR got a couple of callers but no raisers. These callers are not likely to have a 5 or a deuce and looking for a 5 outer. They are not likely to have a King as they did not raise the PFR on the flop. This doesn't leave many other possibilities for their caling hands (i.e. Ax, medium pp, slowplayed set, bigger flush draw). Thus, not checkraising with 7c6c seems to be the better play on this flop.

But if the flop was KJ9 with two clubs and the action went the same way, a checkraise with 7c6c would look good to me as now the callers could have all kinds of hands other than the feared bigger flush draw.

[YoureToast]

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But if the flop was KJ9 with two clubs and the action went the same way, a checkraise with 7c6c would look good to me as now the callers could have all kinds of hands other than the feared bigger flush draw........

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......and therefore would be more likely to call a 3 bet. Is that completion of your sentence accurate? Just trying to make sure I catch your drift.

[koa]

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Poster: Paluka
Subject: Re: Standard?

I don't like the flop checkraise at all- you will get 3 bet a lot and if you are "lucky" enough to get guys call 2 cold it becomes a lot more likely you don't have the best flush draw.



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Hold on a second. By the time CO 3-bets the flop there are TWENTY-ONE SBs in the pot. With the flush draw being the only draw out there, it wouldn't be that incorrect for anybody with any piece of the board to call the 2 more SBs, and if only two players do, then its significantly +EV for me to raise. (Admittedly, that changes somewhat if someone has a better flush draw or if CO has a set, which he did)

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Your checkraise of the entire field is going to look pretty scary to some people, and then the 3 bet is terrifying. I think you overestimate how many people are going to want to call 2 cold here. And saying that "calling 2 cold" is probably correct with any piece because the pot is big doesn't help us, because you can't make assumptions that your opponents are going to play correctly. There are many mediocre players who just won't call 2 cold on flops despite the odds unless they really like their hands. And of course some guys will call 2 cold with nothing.

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If I have 2-3 off I'm not calling 2 bets cold just cause I hit a piece of the flop. With the flop 3 bet someone at least has two pair or a flush draw (taking two outs away) or even worst trips which makes near dead.

[skp]

Well yes, others calling the 3 bet is a factor but that might never come to pass - after all, the flop bettor may not 3 bet. The main reason why checkraising a bettor and two callers is better on a KJ9 flop as opposed to K52 is that there is less risk that you are up against a bigger flush draw.

[Paluka]

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Paluka,

Is your adverse comment on checkraising with a flush draw in this post made generally or is it with keeping in mind this specific flop of K52?

I too don't like the flop checkraise (but I am only slightly against it) because the flop is K52 and yet the PFR got a couple of callers but no raisers. These callers are not likely to have a 5 or a deuce and looking for a 5 outer. They are not likely to have a King as they did not raise the PFR on the flop. This doesn't leave many other possibilities for their caling hands (i.e. Ax, medium pp, slowplayed set, bigger flush draw). Thus, not checkraising with 7c6c seems to be the better play on this flop.

But if the flop was KJ9 with two clubs and the action went the same way, a checkraise with 7c6c would look good to me as now the callers could have all kinds of hands other than the feared bigger flush draw.

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Makes sense.
Do you think checkraising the flop makes it more or less likely we will be able to put just one bet on turn assuming we still dont' have our flush?

[Emoney]

does that change the value we'd be getting on the flop with >2 callers?