RFID in Casino Chips: Tracking your every move. - Page 2

whiskeytown · #11 05-16-2005, 08:42 PM

old news really...

but then, anyone who had an expectation of privacy in a casino was deluded to begin with.

RB

wacki · #12 05-16-2005, 08:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
track your avg. bet for comps wouldn't there be a way to place and remove chips from the layout in order to fool the system into thinking your avg bet is larger than it is? like sliding out some blacks while the dealer is shuffling then moving back to green...how would the layout know it wasnt an actual bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

Size of stacks before/after bets + size of pot + any other info they can throw in the mix.

It won't be hard for them to make a very reliable system.

Zeno · #13 05-16-2005, 09:01 PM

Keep in mind that part of the system is a sophistated computer tracking software hooked into a series of sensors and the system could be sophisticated enough to sense 'questionable moves' etc. And the software systems can evolve and be improved to be very adept at tracking anything the casino deemed improper.

But your point brings up something that is a constant in technological development. Whenever a new technology becomes more commonplace, then someone will always find a way to counter or defeat whatever that technology is aiming to do. This entire system depends on radio frequencies. It doesn't take too much thinking, especially with the availability of miniaturization etc, of an instrument that could disrupt this system and be easily concealed, say in a piece of jewelry (a wedding ring for example). In fact, I'm sure someone is working on it as we speak. I can think of a few other ‘things’ that could be used to conduct fun experiments on this tracking system, but I think it best to end my post right now. But I must add that I have no interest in doing any experiments. Period.

-Zeno

Zeno · #14 05-16-2005, 09:13 PM

I have been interested in this for a few years - mainly to get in on a stock investment opportunity - that was more than 2 years ago. So yes, it is old news in a sense.

But the potential use/abuse of this system is something to be aware of, even if you are not particularily concerned about it. And it certainly has the potential to be beneficial to players, but at the same time, also a reason for concern. IMO.

-Zeno

maxor · #15 05-16-2005, 09:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
track your avg. bet for comps wouldn't there be a way to place and remove chips from the layout in order to fool the system into thinking your avg bet is larger than it is? like sliding out some blacks while the dealer is shuffling then moving back to green...how would the layout know it wasnt an actual bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think the tracking would be a "snapshot" type system. RFID allows for the constant tracking of the chips so the casino would be able to determine if chips were a bet, or if they were simply pushed into the betting circle and then removed. Also, dont't forget that the casino staff will still be taking notes of your play and would realize that you're only betting $10 each time rather than $100 if you're successful in tricking the system.

I think RFID is an amazing technology and I think it's application in casino chips is really cool. I'm a bit of a data geek, but I would love to go through the collected data and see the different patterns and trends.

benfranklin · #16 05-17-2005, 12:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
track your avg. bet for comps wouldn't there be a way to place and remove chips from the layout in order to fool the system into thinking your avg bet is larger than it is? like sliding out some blacks while the dealer is shuffling then moving back to green...how would the layout know it wasnt an actual bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

Unlike pit games like craps, roulette, etc., the house is not concerned with action at the poker table, it is concerned with rake. It doesn't matter if you are a rock or a maniac, if you are sitting at the table, you are contributing to rake, unless the game is so dead that the house is not taking max rake out of every pot. The only house interest in action would be to the extent that table action is correlated with non-poker leaks. And they would get that info from the pits, either from the staff or from tracking chips there.

As I believe was stated in the original post, I think that the primary and immediate concerns of the casinos are theft and counterfeiting. As a bonus, it also gives them a better measure of the action at pit games. But the primary focus would seem to be on employees rather than on players. Just the increased threat of getting caught is going to stop a dishonest dealer from palming a $100 chip to go with his stack of $1 tokes, or overpaying a buddy at a craps table.

All of that aside, I fully concur with Zeno's implied theme of unintended consequences (or perhaps my inferred theme). New technology often evolves in unimagined directions. In five years, I bet these discussions will be about RFID applications not even hinted at here. Welcome to the brave new world.

MrMon · #17 05-17-2005, 07:55 PM

The main problem with using RFID chips in poker is the scanners aren't all that fast right now. If you pushed in a big stack, it would likely jam the system. Give them a few years and they'll fix that problem. Then, I can see it being really useful in tournaments. It will eliminate passing chips and some other types of cheating. Plus, wouldn't you just love to see an electronic leaderboard at the WSOP, or even online?

Now, if they could make RFID cards, that might be interesting, as long as there was pretty good encryption. A whole lot of downside possibilities though.

tylerdurden · #18 05-17-2005, 08:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Now, if they could make RFID cards, that might be interesting, as long as there was pretty good encryption. A whole lot of downside possibilities though.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought RFID cards were used for the live Turning Stone tournament on Fox last year.

wacki · #19 05-18-2005, 06:44 PM

Hehe if you think you have it bad with Casino RFID chips, check this out.

http://www.rfidjournal.com/article/a...view/1601/1/1/

RED_RAIN · #20 05-19-2005, 11:48 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The main problem with using RFID chips in poker is the scanners aren't all that fast right now.

[/ QUOTE ]

What? What scanner and rate are you talking about? Being that many of the scanners are able to scan a whole box full of individual shaving razors while they go through docking doors at an accuracy higher than manual scanning seems the chips wouldn't be a problem.

Now a problem that I do see in this is RFID is still not 100% accurate. If you take a RFID tag and turn it at the right angle, it will disappear on the RFID middleware. So with people twirling the chips and all, it could be miscounted I believe or if the chips fall a certain way in the pile in the middle.

Muchless, if you try to scan a ton of tags on top of each other (being chips would be very close), they often miss many of the tags. Perhaps that's what they spent years doing. I would love to see how they got over this though.