5's and 10's

[JTG51]

We all agree that A5o is slightly better than A6o under certain circumstances. It's not because simply having a 5 makes it easier to make a straight, as the poster is asking. It's because the combination of an A and a 5 makes it easier to make a straight than an A and a 6. Even so, I'd rather have A6 than A5 the majoritiy of the time, as your kicker will be more important that any marginal straight value over the long run. If you'd like to play a heads up match where you get A5o every hand and I get A6o, I'm game. [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

As Dynasty pointed out, K6 beats the pants off of K5. Same for Q6 vs Q5 and J6 vs J5. That kind of puts a hole in the 5's are more valuable theory.

Here's one more example for you. By your rational you'd rather have T5o than T6o, since 5's and T's are more valuable, correct?

[skp]

Dynasty is right.

T6 is better than T5 (I think you'll agree with me on that). But that doesn't mean that having a 6 in your hand is more valuable than having a 5. It just works better with a ten than does a 5. Similarly, a 5 works better with an Ace than does a 6.

If my first card was a 5, I would want the second card to also be a 5 rather than an Ace. But doesn't mean that I have just proved that 5's are more valubale than Aces.

[ChipWrecked]

By your rational you'd rather have T5o than T6o, since 5's and T's are more valuable, correct?
************************************************** ********

Ummmmmm, this is a joke, right?

(signed)
total neophyte

[JTG51]

No, it's not a joke. Am I wrong? Do you think T5 is better than T6? The logic Josh used above implies that it is, which it clearly isn't. I was attempting to show that he was using faulty logic.

[ChipWrecked]

I'm new to Hold 'em, and to me T6o and T5o are equally junk; I would toss either without thinking. I guess I need more experience before I try to play this kind of hand. Maybe I misread this post and this isn't an HE hand at all...

[JTG51]

No, you don't need more esperience to play this hand. Mucking either is the right play. That wasn't my point.

My point is that while they both are garbage, T6o is much stronger than T5o. If that doesn't seem obvious to you, imagine playing a heads up match. You have T5o every hand and I have T6o every hand (of course, neither of us remembers that the other is going to have the same hand every time). I'd have all your chips in no time.

[Josh W]

The question is, everything else being equal, is it benefitial to have a 5 and/or T in your hand?

Obviously, this can't be answered accross the board.

I mean, we are dealt two cards. Lets compare two hands. On has a 5 in it, one doesn't.

How can we look at a scenario with everything being equal when 50% of the hand is different?

Sure, you could respond by saying "everything ELSE in the hand is equal". Then, the answer is:

It depends.

In some scenarios, yes it is more benefitial for the second card in your hand to be a 5 or T.

For instance, if you first card is a 6, 7, 8, 9, or T, you'd prefer the second card to be a ten instead of a jack.

So, everything else being the same (i.e. the 'other' card is a 6 in both instances, or a 7 in both instances, or an 8 in both instances, or a 9 in both instances, or a T in both instances), your hand would have more value with a ten (over a Jack).

As such, the answer is:

Yes. There are instances where your hand value increases by having a Ten.

But that's just half of it. See, when you ask a question about 'more value', you are inherently doing a comparisson. In this case, we are comparing a T vs a non-ten.

Before we can answer this question, we need to assign some value to the non-ten. Every rank of card has some inherent value (an A is the most valuable, because a pair of A's is the best pair. Next is a K. Last is a 2. We all know this).

So, when we are looking at the card that may or may not be a ten, we need to find out what our options are for the card.

Is a ten better than a non-ten? Sometimes, of course. If we rank the cards on a relative gradient of value, and we discount the possibility of straights, then we'd expect a fairly linear relationship.

In reality, though, the gap between a 4 and a 5 is larger than the gap between 3 and the 4, or the 5 and the 6. This is because of the straight possibilies.

Likewise, the gap between a T and a J is smaller than the gap between a J and a Q or the gap between a 9 and a T.

So, I guess what I'm saying is that 5s and Ts have more relative inherent value than 2s, 3s, 4s, Js, Qs and Ks, because they make more straights (or, perhaps more accurately, there are more cards that they can be partnered with that allows them to make 2-card straights).

I image that this is as convoluted as possible, and for that I apologize. However, I gotta stand firm that I am right. But don't respond to this and say that I am crazy for liking 5's more than aces. I don't.

But if I had quantify values, the ratio of T:9 is noticeable larger than the ratio of J:T. The ratio of 5:4 is larger than the ratio of 6:5.

That's all I'm saying, and I doubt you guys have the persistence to say otherwise [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

Josh

[Bozeman]

However, the point you are making is not that 5's are 10's are more valuable, but that 5,6,7,8,9,and 10 are more valuable. Quite a different matter entirely. So since 5's are not better than 6's paired with a random card, the answer to the original question is obviously no.

Craig

[Josh W]

unless, of course, we address the fact that the more 5s and Ts we have, the fewer we have, thus the less likely then can make a straight.

But for the most part, I agree with what you said. 5s and Ts exclusively don't have more power...5, 6, 7, 8, 9, and Ts have more power. As such, both 5s and Ts have more power than the avg. card (since the avg. card includes the power of 2s, 3s, 4s, Js, Qs, and Ks).

5s and Ts exclusively? no. But 5s and Ts overall? Yep.

Josh

[cpk]

compare JJ-99 vs. AK, KQ, and AQ (in order to weaken high card value of the bigger cards).

You're even money against the entire field, but 99s are slightly better than either one! Figure that one out!

Straights just don't happen that often 4-handed.

<pre><font class="small">code:</font><hr>
cards win %win loss %lose tie %tie EV
Tc Td 555253 51.13 526623 48.49 4132 0.38 0.5122
Ac Kd 291364 26.83 772486 71.13 22158 2.04 0.2775
As Qh 157186 14.47 906846 83.50 21976 2.02 0.1539
Qs Kh 54863 5.05 1016463 93.60 14682 1.35 0.0563

cards win %win loss %lose tie %tie EV
Jc Jd 553495 50.97 528091 48.63 4422 0.41 0.5107
Ac Kd 292400 26.92 771192 71.01 22416 2.06 0.2785
As Qh 157666 14.52 906108 83.43 22234 2.05 0.1544
Qs Kh 54863 5.05 1016205 93.57 14940 1.38 0.0564

cards win %win loss %lose tie %tie EV
9c 9d 566312 52.15 515794 47.49 3902 0.36 0.5224
Ac Kd 270619 24.92 790425 72.78 24964 2.30 0.2598
As Qh 153538 14.14 907626 83.57 24844 2.29 0.1519
Qs Kh 64315 5.92 1005151 92.55 16542 1.52 0.0659
</pre><hr>