Tricky River; Good Bluff Inducer?

[zeero3]

I haven't played w/ this guy before and this is DEFINITELY not my standard line. Im sure those warning bells were sounded, but do you see a better raise than a min here that wouldn't lose him? (I'd rather keep him here and tug the line than just yank it and hope the hook doesn't rip through his gills).

[zeero3]

So you think I'm BEHIND on this turn???????

[Bukem_]

Alot depends on his aggression or calling preferences.

Oversimplyfying things, if he makes strong continuation bets check call the flop, check raise the turn.

If he likes to raise your bets bet out 2/3 the pot on the flop.

If he can't get away from hands I might check raise the flop to mix things up since he will be locked in since the pot will be bloated by the turn once he calls and it will be very hard for him to get away.

[FreakDaddy]

[ QUOTE ]
So you think I'm BEHIND on this turn???????

[/ QUOTE ]

No, where did I say that? I think you're in front. Let me break this down for you again. Even with all your comments, you have a decent raise pre-flop and a call (even if it's from the BB). I fold at this point, unless the table was calling and playing a lot of crap hands with raises. Second pushing or not pushing sets comes with experience, the texture of the flop, players involved in the hand, your relative and fixed position. After the board pairs I push this turn. Why? It's a decent size pot, I may get called, AND if the river pairs another card, I may have now lost this decent size pot. You had an even worse situation occur and the board tripped. Like I said, unless you place villian as an idiot fish, I'd respect this push.

What did villian hold?

[zeero3]

Villain's QUICK call of my flop min-raise told me he had NOTHING solid at all.
Villain's VERY LONG call of the turn told me he didn't think he had a shot, but thought "What the hell is this guy doing betting this amount? I'm gonna call this guy with my hand that STILL is not solid."

He had AQ

[Rastapopoulos]

I was certain you were behind on the river.

Obviously as you took it down, what can I say?

So villain was playing AQ that way. Would he have played TT or JJ differently? Heck, would he have played A7o differently (since he played that hand like a moron)?

If you are that certain of your hand reading capabilities, then fine. But you are putting yourself in a reeeeeally tight spot when you try to induce a bluff with that river card. OK, if you said to yourself: "I know what villain has, I check, I call any bet he makes", then perhaps thats another story. But how can you call any bet he makes with that river card? Even if he is a complete chump, the more reason for you to fold, since he would have boated up.

All in all: Good for you if you like pain and difficult decisions, but personally I like to keep things simple for my self.

[-Skeme-]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold pre-flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

..you serious?

[bkholdem]

I'm finding this thread interesting. Just a few comments to add for people to think about and comment on if they agree or disagree:

I'm wondering how OP could eliminate mid pp's (or even high pp's based on flop play) from the vilian's range of hands. Isn't it within the range of choices for many players to raise preflop, bet this flop, and then just call a mini raise on the flop thinking THEY are ahead? The vilian is the preflop raiser. I forget if you said you had a strong read on him. Would the vilian have a read on you in this hand? Does he read anything into this mini raise? such as strength, you hitting top pair (you limp called preflop and lots of players do this with all sorts of hands, especially six max)?

I realize the flop looked real nice to you but given your read of AK what about diamonds? What would you have done if a diamond fell on the turn instead of the board pairing? I realize this isn't a high probability scenario (six max, heads up, flushes coming up less often) but would you have been trapped by a flush with your set not improving and under what circumstances? (vilian checking turn, check rasing, betting out small or pot, etc)

If you were the bb and held tens, would you call your flop mini raise, always reraise? What about check calling an overpair on the turn?

I don't always play sets srong. But the lower the set and the more coordinated the board is the riskier it is to just juice the pot. This is particularly true for me because I get caught up and call later in the hand when I am behind if I'm not on my A game.

[zeero3]

OP= out of position or opponent??

The key here for me is that this is a 6MAX game. If the villain held a pocketpair and was minraised on the flop, he would DEFINITELY reassess where he stood ON THE FLOP. At the very least I would see some sort of aggression BEFORE THE RIVER. A REminraise on the flop for information seems like the most probable choice a villain would go by. Or maybe a stop-and-go on the turn. In 6-max, if someone bets and is minraised, and they QUICKLY call what alarm bells does that sound off for YOU?

When I see this done, I sometimes get very aggressive w/ TPGK for ALL THE MONEY. That's why I use the flop on 6max and weird betting patterns to figure out where I stand at this moment.

However, when I DO do this, I am extremely weary of what turns. Completed straights, flushes, a change in their aggression, a chance to bluff? This does not only apply to 6max as well. Playing a full Party 50NL table yesterday I had QQ late reraised a MINRAISER from early position to $3. The flop came J82 (two diamonds) and the villain checked and called my OVERBET QUICKLY! THIS IS IMPORTANT!!! Ok now this is interesting as this player is a fish. HMM what could he have, I ruled out AJ from the flop because this fish was aggressive and would have reraised. The turn came an ACE and this time he lead out for 5, I MINraised to 10, and he massaged it to 17 QUICKLY... If he does NOT have AJ and is reraising this board NOW what's going on? He could have AK at this point but again he reaised QUICKLY!

[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]I have been wanting to emphasize how timing in betting is VERY IMPORTANT IN READING HANDS ONLINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!![img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

So at this point I still put him to a hand that DID NOT IMPROVE ON THE TURN. He is betting too fast and isnt thinking. I ended up RERAISING to ALMOST the rest of my chips (I left myself $2 so he would have to call the river also done for image purposes) and he now STOPPED AND THOUGHT for a long time. He ended up CALLING my turn bet and a flush came on the river and he took it down w/ a small flush draw!!!

So TIMING is what I based my decisions on, and I know I can't show how long each player took to make a decision from the bison converter but I'm trying to relay just how important timing is.

BTW I use this against others. If an opponenet has a hand and I KNOW he's highly interested, I sometimes do a "stopandgo" w/ lightning speed especially if im OOP it works even better. ie: villain overbets the pot 2x on flop I TAKE A WHILE and think about it taking the clock to 16s left and CALL w/ a very strong hand. On the turn after he bets, I get mouse ready to slide the bettor to allin as FAST AS POSSIBLE to throw him off. Because RIGHT AFTER he makes his turn bet he still thinks he's ahead and if you get that bet in quickly enought he won't stop to think about what I may REALLY have other than a bluff.

Thanks for your replies........

[zeero3]

I definitely do not like tough decisions but they come up all the time in poker. The river fell the way it did. What would you do at this point? Check-fold? Check-call a SMALL bet? PUSH? Cuss at Party for "ruining" your great hand? I hated that river too you know? It wasn't an easy call, but I didn't think the villain's hand changed at any point. OF COURSE HE COULD HAVE HAD AA-33, but did it LOOK like he did? If he did then he hid it VERY VERY WELL right????? I don't want you to think I like being in this spot, but the pot had ~$55 in it and it was costing me ~$30 to call. The question of him having it and bluffing was helping me call this pot. If he bet $200 into a $55 pot then I don't think I can make this call unless I KNOW this guy, but his betting pattern should have shown enough that he held AK right?