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#11
04-22-2005, 09:00 PM
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Re: What\'s the lowest hands you defend BB against a CO raiser at PP15?
When you defend with something like 86o, what do you do when you miss? Do you always try to fit or fold on the flop? Do you float the flop once in a while or try to resteal? What is the minimum you need to flop to continue on with 86o?
What about defending with K8o? Do you check call down a flop of say T52? Try to resteal at any point? Mix it up? The most difficult situations are going to be with Q or J high where you may put 2 or 3 bets in postflop AND fold the winner at the end. People will take notice that you are very loose in the blinds, I'm just not sure if thats a good thing or a bad thing... 
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#12
04-23-2005, 12:37 AM
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Re: What\'s the lowest hands you defend BB against a CO raiser at PP15?
[ QUOTE ]
Do you always try to fit or fold on the flop? [/ QUOTE ] Yep, though i push if i catch any piece of flop hardly by c/r/bet flop or c/r turn or bet/cr river. With 68o 47Jr is a 'piece of flop' to me. [ QUOTE ] What about defending with K8o? Do you check call down a flop of say T52? Try to resteal at any point? Mix it up? [/ QUOTE ] Against thinking opponent (who occasionally check turn) im mixing it, against fish that loose in PF i call and c/r turn if i catch any pair with this board. [ QUOTE ] The most difficult situations are going to be with Q or J high where you may put 2 or 3 bets in postflop AND fold the winner at the end. [/ QUOTE ] I make to fold some winners too against stealer... [ QUOTE ] People will take notice that you are very loose in the blinds, I'm just not sure if thats a good thing or a bad thing... [/ QUOTE ] Im also don't sure. Im just trying to see - what'll happen long run.
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#13
05-09-2005, 08:44 PM
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Re: What\'s the lowest hands you defend BB against a CO raiser at PP15?
[ QUOTE ]
I have my stats that show that calling with complete trash against such PFR leading to loose around 0.42bb/h instead of -0.5bb/h by just folding. [/ QUOTE ] Is this the correct way of calculating this kind of stuff? I've always thought the EV of folding was 0. So folding would be better than calling because calling is -.42BB and folding is 0BB.
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#14
05-09-2005, 09:32 PM
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Re: What\'s the lowest hands you defend BB against a CO raiser at PP15?
[ QUOTE ]
Is this the correct way of calculating this kind of stuff? I've always thought the EV of folding was 0. So folding would be better than calling because calling is -.42BB and folding is 0BB. [/ QUOTE ] Well, he's just saying that if you call, then on avg, you'll lose .42BB for the hand. if you fold, then you'll lose .5, since you will lose your big blind. i'd like to see peter_rus back this up with more numbers, as I find his claim to be a little bit hard(but not impossible) to believe.
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#16
05-09-2005, 10:21 PM
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Re: What\'s the lowest hands you defend BB against a CO raiser at PP15?
[ QUOTE ]
Well, he's just saying that if you call, then on avg, you'll lose .42BB for the hand. [/ QUOTE ] Yes...and I'm saying folding is preferable if that is the case since you will lose 0. I guess the question is do you make .08BB on this call or do you lose .42BB? Maybe it's just a language thing, but I'm used to seeing the EV of folding expressed as 0. So then, since folding is neutral EV we look for +EV situations to put our money in the pot. If none of the options are +EV then folding must be correct because the profit of folding is 0.
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#17
05-09-2005, 10:32 PM
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Re: What\'s the lowest hands you defend BB against a CO raiser at PP15?
[ QUOTE ]
Peter, You better show us some maths, bro. [/ QUOTE ] Isn't 23o against any any pocket pair (above 3) something like a 4:1 (or is it 5:1?) underdog; and isn't 23o to overcards something like a 3:1 (or is it 4:1?) underdog? If thats the case (and god knows I should know that but somehow I find it illogically irrelevant), wouldn't Rus's be optimal almost, especially if you are a better postflop player than the stealer, since you are getting 3:1 pot odds. Granted, these odds are based on seeing all 5 board cards, but the metagame benefits might outweigh some of these costs (would you steal from the cutoff against Rus with K7o?) Me -- no way -- if someone is a notorious stealer, I loosen up considerably but I want to see high cards or suited connecotrs. I will reraise with a much wider range of hands against a loose stealer.
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#18
05-09-2005, 10:48 PM
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Re: What\'s the lowest hands you defend BB against a CO raiser at PP15?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Well, he's just saying that if you call, then on avg, you'll lose .42BB for the hand. [/ QUOTE ] Yes...and I'm saying folding is preferable if that is the case since you will lose 0. I guess the question is do you make .08BB on this call or do you lose .42BB? Maybe it's just a language thing, but I'm used to seeing the EV of folding expressed as 0. So then, since folding is neutral EV we look for +EV situations to put our money in the pot. If none of the options are +EV then folding must be correct because the profit of folding is 0. [/ QUOTE ] He's just going by DB records, which state -.5BB when you fold. Technically the EV of folding is 0, since the money in the pot isn't yours, but I guess you could see his defense with trash as being +.08bb/hand. It's semantic, but it's important to note that currently, for peter, defending with trash is more +EV than folding it. Rob
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#19
05-09-2005, 11:55 PM
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Re: What\'s the lowest hands you defend BB against a CO raiser at PP15?
[ QUOTE ]
He's just going by DB records, which state -.5BB when you fold. [/ QUOTE ] OK. Is that -.5bb reflected value for the hand when you see the flop? Just thinking about hands in typical EV fashion, it seems every hand is going to have some value for calling preflop, you'll never be throwing away a whole small bet when you call, so all there EV's will be greater than -.5BB.
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#20
05-10-2005, 04:31 AM
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Re: What\'s the lowest hands you defend BB against a CO raiser at PP15?
[ QUOTE ]
OK. Is that -.5bb reflected value for the hand when you see the flop? Just thinking about hands in typical EV fashion, it seems every hand is going to have some value for calling preflop, you'll never be throwing away a whole small bet when you call, so all there EV's will be greater than -.5BB. [/ QUOTE ] Well, if you folded 100% of your BB hands to steal, then in PT, it would show up that you're -.5BB per hand, when you filter for how you've done against a steal. And, when he says that he's -.42 when calling in those spots, that doesn't mean that he's losing .42BB in addition to his big blind that's already in. Thats what the PT shows, per hand, which is better than the -.5BB that you'd get from folding in those spots. So, of course the EV on that call would be .08 (if his numbers are correct). As entity said, this is just semantics... its just different ways of looking at EV. In this case, maximising EV is just trying to lose the least you can for the entire hand. if you fold, you lose .5BB on the hand, so if you can get your EV anywhere better than -.5BB on the hand, then thats +EV.
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