15 30 hand (live) that troubled me

[FoodForThought]

I like....

[cpitt398]

Just have one second to interject before work then will come back and comment tomarrow. I like the way this thread started off but the talk of capping QQ is going offline because 4 bet is not the cap at the bellagio. 5 Bet is and no cap head up so those arguements do not pertain entirely
thanks for the help thus far thou

[DpR]

For me QQ is auto 4 bet. Lets me see where he is. If he goes 5 then I don't mind folding that flop. Check folding or bet folding that flop the way it was played is horrible. If I have JJ or 1010 in old mans position it is standard for me to raise your flop bet if you make it and I would definitely bet if checked to. I would even make the 3 bet if I thought you were pretty tricky, otherwise I would give up.

Live play is a touch different, but at party if you check fold this flop with QQ you will get creamed. I do not think you played it horrible since I would be pretty sure I was beat after the three bet, but like I said, call that, then if he bets the turn you can be 100% sure you are beat.

[cpitt398]

OK back from work. Been thinking about this hand a lot. The call preflop is questionable, I agree with that. It probably didnt help that Ive not had a great run of cards for quite awhile now. Not to mention a couple of hands earlier I had KK and someone else had AA. I don't think that by not 4 betting it , the flop wouldve missed me. Actually I thik the opposite. Live, in Las Vegas at least, most people including myself will just raise and call a 3 bet with AQ or AK. I think I would be more likely to reraise with any pair here heads up and see if i get capped.
I obviously didnt do that here. If I did, I don't know If I would have been willing to drop another 30 on the hand by check raising with that flop. I think a check raise on the flop would have looked suspicious considering I was representing AA, KK(which I would slowplay), or QQ, which he should know he has a good chance to get me off of.
I think my raise call, then check raise on the flop screams AQ, which I would have to call down with. Im still undecided whether his play was reckless or genius.

[Vincent Lepore]

You should welcome the play of an "old man" that will three bet you on the flop and then show down his under pair when you fold! He is no longer a threat!

Another way to play this hand and I believe the best way is to 4 bet preflop and then bet the flop. If the cap is a bet and three raises this is definitely the right play. If it is a bet and four raises it is most likely the right play. Most players, Even "old, men" won't cap 5 bet without A,A or K,K. The problem in a five bet uncapped situation is that his most likely hand is A,K. but is that really a problem with an A, K flop? If you bet out and are raised you probalby should call. Most players will not raise here with top 2 but will let you continue doing the betting for them. If he raises you are likely beat but it is morelikely that he has Jacks or T,T. A,Q is not very likley given that you have a Q,Q.

Even the way this hand went down you should hve smelled something fishy. You check raise hem and he three bets? What hands would he three bet with? Certainly he wouldn't three bet with a set or A,K (top 2). He probably doesn't 3 bet with 4,4 either. With these hands he most likely raises the turn. I think that he gives away his hand by three betting. I believe that you might have played cards here instead of your opponent and convinced yourself that you were beat resulting in your fold.

Vince

[cpitt398]

by the way if I had AK in this situation and just called a 3 bet I wouldnt give up if a junk flop came up. I wanted to make sure I wasnt giving that impression about my play. By just calling a raise I am in no way giving up on a hand that I thinks winable. I like letting my oppenent look at a flop that couldnt have helped him/her and then representing that Im fine with it. Sometimes people get so crazy with AK preflop thinking its gonna hit everytime that its easier to let them see that sometimes it doesnt and going from there. It seems to make it easier for me to win with the same or slightly worse hands before they get too invested where they feel they got to call it down .

By the way I appreciate the intelligent responses, ecspecially Drp. Your line seems to make good sense to me. If some of you wouldnt mind I posted a question about 2/3 blind structure and blind play in general that no one responded to in the poker theory forum. I would be much obliged if I could get a couple of responses there
Thanks a lot.

[cpitt398]

good reply. I guess both of our plays looked like AQ and I made the last mistake resulting in me losing the hand.

[Vincent Lepore]

"Mistake" may be a bit harsh. You opted to play the hand a certain way that was, I believe, reasonable. I just like playing it a bit differently. Either way we both would have found ourselves in a difficult situation. Flopping 2 overcards to Q,Q with a three bettor in position is not my idea of somewhere I want to be.

Vince

[Vincent Lepore]

I like this strategy.

Vince

[Vincent Lepore]

One other thing. I just read that you play at Bellagio. Well, i am an old man that plays at Bellagio. But I'm sure I wasn't THE one because I wouldn't show you the Jacks. Next time you are there look for me. I don't have any hair.

vince