Would you fold KK to reraise on Turn Straight draw board?

[JC_Saves]

I knew someone would bet because of the fact there were a lot of people in the hand and the board was fairly innocuous at this point, and there were a couple fishes left to act.

This flop did not bother me much at all. I thought it was great until the 3rd str8t card came on turn. I think that I should have maybe checked on turn. His reraise pretty much ensured in my mind that I was totally beat here.

[ArturiusX]

Check-raising here does not protect your hand.

[JC_Saves]

the purpose for the check raise was to build a pot that I figured I would win, not to protect my hand.

I did fold the river, because I knew with 100 percent certainty that I was beat.

The turn reraiser had the straight. His play suggested to me that he would not have reraised without the made hand, which is what he had.

yes the pot was huge, but what is the point of throwing money in a pot that you know you cannot win. I mean if you had 22 and somehow you were in the pot that got big and there was lots of raising an calls on every street, would you call a river bet in this situation? I think it is a terrible play calling bets, even in huge pots, when everything tells you that you are totaly beat.

[xenthebrain]

I would bet out on the flop myself and at least 3-bet it when it comes raised back.

The turn is a really bad card for you. I would go in check/calldown mode from there and fold if it is two bets back to me.

[bottomset]

[ QUOTE ]
the purpose for the check raise was to build a pot that I figured I would win, not to protect my hand.

I did fold the river, because I knew with 100 percent certainty that I was beat.

The turn reraiser had the straight. His play suggested to me that he would not have reraised without the made hand, which is what he had.

yes the pot was huge, but what is the point of throwing money in a pot that you know you cannot win. I mean if you had 22 and somehow you were in the pot that got big and there was lots of raising an calls on every street, would you call a river bet in this situation? I think it is a terrible play calling bets, even in huge pots, when everything tells you that you are totaly beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

uh either you had a bunch of reads that you just forgot to tell us(not good) or you are being very optomistic about it being bet for you on the flop ..

as for the turn raiser has he been very tight with his raises, and only raising very strong hands .. or are you just assuming he could only raise with the straight its a big difference

you only need to win 5% of the time on the river to profit .. against unknown donks you prob still will(though not much more than 5%)

[GrunchCan]

First you said:

[ QUOTE ]
I knew the flop was terrible for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then later you said:

[ QUOTE ]
the purpose for the check raise was to build a pot that I figured I would win, not to protect my hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

These 2 things don't jibe. Do you see this? If you thought the flop was bad for you (I'm not commenting on the correctness of this assumption), then why pump for value?

Moreover, no matter which direction you are coming from here (eg, pot-building or pot-protecting), going for a CR was a mistake here.

If you were trying to protect your hand (you have said that you weren't, but still...), then the CR was a mistake becasue it didn't offer anyone bad odds to call. Anyone who was right to call UTG's initial bet was even more right to call your single raise. Even had UTG 3-bet you, everyone would still be right to call.

If you were trying to build the pot, going for the CR was a mistake. You were the PF aggressor. You have no reason to believe that if you check someone will bet for you.

[JC_Saves]

this is .50/1.00 with 4 people in the pot. The likelihood of no one betting this were inconsequential and I was willing to take that chance, because I would bet on the turn, which I did even though I was not at all happy with the str8t card coming.

I normally do call down when I have a good hand, because I would not sacrifice a big pot for one bet, but I believe there are absolutely times when you know that you are beat, and in those moments when you have no doubt, I don't have a problem folding on the river. The few times I have done this I have not been wrong especially when there are multiple people in the pot.

Throwing away money by calling down bets just because the pot is big, is not always a good idea.

[JC_Saves]

I meant the turn was terrible for me.

[JC_Saves]

Grunch, if you are in LP and PF aggressor then yes, people might check to you, but if you were in EP in the same situation and then check the flop, people will bet behind you quite frequently, especially the .5/1.00 game. The vast majority of these players care nothing about position and play very marginal hands that could have been hit by this flop, and they will bet, or they will bet because no one else has.

A lot of times people with AK, AQ, AJ AT KQ, QJ and even JT will raise PF and then check the flop when it misses them.

I believe that the more people you have in the pot left to act has a direct correlation to whether someone will bet this pot, and if they don't you bet the river on some blank and they think that you are just trying to buy the pot and call you down.

Sometimes it is good to vary your play by going for the CR, or just passing on the flop bet in favor of the bigger turn bet. By CR every so often you will let your table know that just because you didn't bet doesn't mean that you are not setting a trap and you might by yourself a free card later.

It is not always necessary to bet out every time you have the best hand. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

[Dave G.]

This is a good flop for you. When you have KK, a good flop is basically any flop without an ace that is either not monotone or is monotone and you have the K of the suit.

Check-raising this flop is bad. Who are you check-raising? You were the PF aggressor, who is going to bet the flop for you? You need to know this before you try and pull something like this. Additionally, the player immediately to your left bet, so you didn't protect your hand (if that's what you were trying to do), you just tied people to the pot and gave almost any half-decent draw odds to call all the way to the river. This is bad.

On the turn, with this many players and four to a straight on the board, you have to check. You're out of position so you want to see what other people think of the board. If it comes back 2 or more to you you have an easy fold. If you bet and it comes back 2 to you, you've just wasted a bet.

I'm not even sure about calling the river. There's not much chance you're good here.