The origin of Logic

[chezlaw]

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you've "proved" that logic exists and then proposed logic is god. Well done. I propose the god is cheesecake and we have all seen cheesecake in the shops therefore god must exist.

tom 1:14
yea he did look upon the cheesecake and saw that it was tasty and he did eat of it mmmmmmmmm delicious.

This ends my proof of the existence of god

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Finally a convincing proof. Blessed are the cheescake makers

[Bodhi]

Ummmmmmmmm...

[jason_t]

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I don't think logic "comes from" anywhere. Nothing justifies logic, as when Wittgenstein wrote that "Logic must take care of itself." Your initial question sounded more empirical to me, and that's what lead me to say what I did.

Quote:
Additionally, logic could not have started when man began to speak because logic (which made sure that the world was not a pancake, that the universe was not a donut or an elephant) clearly existed prior to man's initial vocal action.



Logic had nothing to do with the shape of the earth or whether the universe was an elephant. Logic provides the syntax for language and conditions for the truth of sentences.

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So I guess I'll reveal my ulterior motive here.

Essentially:
Logic is true no matter who is speaking. Logic is true no matter what is there. Logic trancends this universe, and in fact, Logic is part of any possible universe. No matter how it may have come about, no matter what is inside of it, Logic is part of it. Logic is universal in the fullest sense of the word.

I propose that the source of Logic is God, a trancendant being, who's very nature defines Logic. And not just any God, but the God of the 66 books in the Christian Bible.

John 1:1-3

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

the greek word translated "Word" is logos which can also be translated, yup you guessed it: logic, reason, wisdom

Since we take logic's existance assumed by every action (unless we're crazy and actually do think this computer is also a cat and 3 toed monkeys), in order to live and survive, we are in fact presupposing the source from which we have Logic: God.

And this concludes my proof for God's existence.

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You are argument runs like the following:

1. For logic to exist, there must be a God.
2. Logic exists.
3. God exists.

And you use the bible in your proof which before the fact may just be the work of man.

Good work.

[purnell]

Since this has become yet another discussion about "god", I'm offering a lame duck for all you smart folks to shoot down for me.

Gather 'round, children, and heed my words: "god", for lack of a better word, is randomness, and randomness is "god".

[jason1990]

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"god", for lack of a better word, is randomness, and randomness is "god".

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It's difficult to agree with such a potentially ambiguous sentiment, but since there is no elaboration, I'll go out on a limb and agree.

So does this have any interesting implications?

[purnell]

just makes me feel all cozy...

edit: One implication might be that poker players are the new priests. How 'bout that. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[purnell]

OK, I'll try. I guess this really belongs in OOT now, but since you asked, how about this:

1) Randomness pervades the universe. From brownian motion to the placement of the galaxies, randomness is the rule. You might go so far as to say that randomness is "all-encompassing", which is a word that we might choose to use in a definition of the word "god".


I'm thinkin.... maybe I can come up with some more.

[purnell]

2) Randomness is omnipresent in our lives. Everything that occurs without human intervention, it would seem, is a "random" event.

This of course would make god very different from humans, as opposed to our being made in the image of god. (This concept never made sense to me. To what end would an anthropomorphic god create images (dolls?) of herself?)

Not only do we perceive ourselves as different from randomness, but we also (think?) we are at odds with it. This would seem to answer the "If god is god, why does (x) happen?" question. Randomness doesn't care (if I may assume).


edit: any logicians out there want to pick this apart?

[purnell]

Now we have randomness omnipresent, and (more or less) omnipotent (A "random" event, say a large comet colliding with the Earth, could certainly wipe out our species).

What else do we need? A physical entity? Reason? Will? If we need any of these to define a "god", then randomness does not qualify. Do we?

[udontknowmickey]

[ QUOTE ]
You are argument runs like the following:

1. For logic to exist, there must be a God.
2. Logic exists.
3. God exists.

And you use the bible in your proof which before the fact may just be the work of man.

Good work.

[/ QUOTE ]


This leads into: Without first presupposing all of the Bible and it's entire worldview it entails, nothing is knowable.

By doing science, you must assume uniformity in nature (testability + repeatability), but that assumption is unwarrented without a universal immutable God by which to sustain and maintain the universe.

By performing logic (or even acknowledging that this chair is not a desk), you must assume that logic holds in that particular instance. This assumption is unwarrented without a God who's trancendence provides the universal basis for logic.

By using your senses, you assume that they are accurate and reliable, but this is unwarrented without God's direct intervention so that we move and live by His power.

I gave my arguements for God's existence and I say you must borrow from my worldview in order to begin to argue against God. But in borrowing from my worldview, you must assume it's true, and thus all your arguements are groundless and baseless.

I challenge you to give your rational for how you're even able to use logic, senses or anything. I challenge you to give a reason why logic should work universally, why there should be a universal moral code (or deny that there is one). I challenge you to explain how you can even understand the word "and" and know it's meaning.

I state (and I can give support from my worldview) that all these things find their answers only in the God laid forth in the 66 books of the Bible.