Folding KK pre flop ... Party 20+2 sit'n'go - Page 2

SuitedSixes · #11 04-03-2005, 01:25 PM

You don't fold here.

CO's push does not indicate great strength in this situation. He is hoping to shut everyone else out to isolate with the short stack, effectively only risking 480 of his own chips. He is counting on the short stack having a pretty wide range at this point, which a hand like AJ is strong against. More times than not, I would think at this point, you are up against two hands with an ace, leaving either of them with two outs. This is an easy call.

The play to be cautious of here, is the player who just calls the all-in or min-raises, this is an indication of someone who is hoping that by showing weakness, he can trap another caller.

microbet · #12 04-03-2005, 01:31 PM

This thread got into a case where folding KK was a close call. The majority of people, I think, were for a call with KK, but it was not an easy call. This one is. The discussion is later on in the thread, but it is all worth a look.

stevetee · #13 04-03-2005, 01:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This thread got into a case where folding KK was a close call. The majority of people, I think, were for a call with KK, but it was not an easy call. This one is. The discussion is later on in the thread, but it is all worth a look.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for all comments so far. I actually read the majority of that thread a few days back. What concerned me here was the fact that I would be 60/40 against the field to win the hand. Although really I'm only tackling the CO player for ALL my chips. Also, I'm not in a terrible position if I did decide to fold. I guess when I look at it in the way that "had" the MP folded, "then" CO pushed, yes, I know I'm calling. It was the 3 way thing that bugged me more.

microbet · #14 04-03-2005, 01:47 PM

Yeah, 40 percent chance of losing doesn't sound that great, but even if they other guy had you covered too, it would be a good call.

In this case, put a dollar value on having 1340 chips here with 5 or 6 players remaining or having 3200 chips with 4 players remaining (ICM, unless you have a better method). 60% of one will be a lot more than 100% of the other.

apd138 · #15 04-03-2005, 01:48 PM

This would probably have been the worst preflop fold of your life and im not kidding.

SuitedSixes · #16 04-03-2005, 02:00 PM

Micro is right. Your 60/40 concern is to knock out two players and become Huge Stack, and I would take that all day. You were over 70/30 against the only player who could have done damage to your stack.

I go back to my original assertion. KK is great against a short stack, and KK is great against a guy who thinks he's probably good against a short stack.

Would you have folded if the cards were exposed to you?

stevetee · #17 04-03-2005, 02:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Micro is right. Your 60/40 concern is to knock out two players and become Huge Stack, and I would take that all day. You were over 70/30 against the only player who could have done damage to your stack.

I go back to my original assertion. KK is great against a short stack, and KK is great against a guy who thinks he's probably good against a short stack.

Would you have folded if the cards were exposed to you?

[/ QUOTE ]

No I wouldn't. And I like that take on it. That, combined with microbets numbers make sense. Has cleared my thinking.
Thanks

willie · #18 04-03-2005, 02:51 PM

i couldn't believe the first response to this thread.

no you don't fold here, you're ahead. crissakes almighty you probably shouldn't be folding kk almost EVER save a few situations. And this clearly is not one of those situations.

clear insta call.

Apathy · #19 04-03-2005, 03:41 PM

Never fold KK preflop online unless you would also fold AA, end of story.

wdcbooks · #20 04-03-2005, 04:31 PM

Many of these huge laydown questions seem to presume that these are hands we get dealt all the time. The thinking seems to be 'go ahead and fold KK, and I'll just wait until I get it again'. Frankly that is nonsense.

To win you have to get the most from the few big hands you are going to get. If that means you feel a bit queasy when you have two other all ins in front of you, you just have to suck it up and put the money in. You will be the favorite in a vast majority of cases.

The only reason this is ever a question is the human tendency to forget the favorable outcomes. You just don't see posts asking, 'I called an all in with KK and the other two showed AJ and QJ. Even though I tripled up, did I do the right thing?'.

I may be biased because I don't make big laydowns in single table tournaments very often. Your opponents are not usually playing at a very high level and they often overvalue their cards. Even when they show you AA, you know it is likely they would have made the same play with AT.