JJ hand, tossed on the turn - Page 2

bernie · #11 03-26-2005, 10:41 PM

He might raise with Js or Qs. But not 3 bet them. These types of players feel that they need better than Js or Qs to 3 bet, since that is generally their lowest hands in their preflop raising range. Much more likely to raise AKs than AKo. Even then, they'd debate it with themselves and lean toward just calling.

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sthief09 · #12 03-26-2005, 10:42 PM

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There no way he plays AK like this, especially given your flop check?

I bet out on the flop, especially if his calling, rather than raising, would indicate AK.

You're making a very specific read, which I think is great if justified but pretty bad otherwise.

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and what if he doesn't raise with QQ or KK, or even AA? then you bet 3 times with the worse hand, whereas you can check-fold the hand, knowing you have the worse hand

CallMeIshmael · #13 03-26-2005, 10:45 PM

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He might raise with Js or Qs. But not 3 bet them. These types of players feel that they need better than Js or Qs to 3 bet, since that is generally their lowest hands in their preflop raising range. Much more likely to raise AKs than AKo. Even then, they'd debate it with themselves and lean toward just calling.

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I assumed your logic behind the flop call was this: there is no way he bets the TURN with AK, but he would bet the flop. So, you had to call and see the turn.

My question now becomes: if this player isnt 3-betting preflop with AK, why even call the flop bet, with 1.5 outs?

gaming_mouse · #14 03-26-2005, 10:48 PM

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[ QUOTE ]
There no way he plays AK like this, especially given your flop check?

I bet out on the flop, especially if his calling, rather than raising, would indicate AK.

You're making a very specific read, which I think is great if justified but pretty bad otherwise.

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and what if he doesn't raise with QQ or KK, or even AA? then you bet 3 times with the worse hand, whereas you can check-fold the hand, knowing you have the worse hand

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I said IF his calling would indicate AK.

And yes, I agree c/folding is correct, but only if you really KNOW (or are 90% certain, say) that your hand really is beat. That's why I said that I thought the play was great if he could trust is read.

bernie · #15 03-26-2005, 10:58 PM

I didn't say it was definite he wasn't 3 betting preflop with AK.

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My question now becomes: if this player isnt 3-betting preflop with AK, why even call the flop bet,

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Much more likely to raise AKs than AKo. Even then, they'd debate it with themselves and lean toward just calling.

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You're right. I was making sure he didn't have AK. There was a possibility of him having that on the flop.

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CallMeIshmael · #16 03-26-2005, 11:02 PM

My bad, I thought you were talking about raising standards in the post, not 3-betting standards..

If they could have AK (and would be the flop with it), it seems like this would be the best line.

bernie · #17 03-26-2005, 11:04 PM

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and what if he doesn't raise with QQ or KK, or even AA? then you bet 3 times with the worse hand, whereas you can check-fold the hand, knowing you have the worse hand

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This is a very common line for an opponent. To call down with an overpair on a monotone board if bet into. They'd fear the monster and call it out. Which actually, isn't a bad play, especially given their position, relatively small pot and the HU factor.

Though you might be able to blow him off an overpair, mainly QQ, if the 4th flush card hits. But usually they bite the bullet and call down anyways.

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bernie · #18 03-26-2005, 11:09 PM

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If they could have AK (and would be the flop with it), it seems like this would be the best line

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They might bet the flop with a trump card. If they don't have it, they'd likely just check. Or if they do bet without it, they won't bet the turn again. With or w/o a trump card.

But most of these types, once they 3 bet preflop, they will auto-bet the flop when checked to. Being bet into would confuse them a little unless they had AA or KK. But it's not worth betting into them knowing you will likely be raised. It costs the same, yet you get to see one more card the other way while gaining the same info.

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