87 s - gets worse every street - good fold? - Page 2

davelin · #11 03-25-2005, 01:02 PM

Easy check/call on the turn.

flair1239 · #12 03-25-2005, 01:06 PM

You don't need to bet this turn.

1. You raised the flop for value because you had a big draw. (Flush draw and gutshot straight) So 12 outs or so, maybe depreciate a little because you have the bottom end of the gut shot and a non nut flush draw... but easy raise none the less.

2. You also would have liked to buy the button. This did not happen.

3. A free card on the turn would have been a good option to have.

So on the turn, the queen did not help you and even made your situation worse, in that it weakend your gutshot. At this point you do not have a hand to protect, and with three people a bet would not be for value. With a highly coordinated board that contains (3) overcards to your hand, it is unlikely that betting out will win the pot right there, as a matter of fact your are more likely to be raised on this board.

We do want to see the river, but would not like to have to pay 2BB to do it.

On the river, I may be misapplying the concept, but getting almost 12-1 closing the action I would like to see my one card straight in a showdown.

I am sure that somebody will suggest, betting the river and folding to a raise, that is probably fine as well. But for me when the decison is close (which I think this is) I like to see a showdown.

iluzion · #13 03-25-2005, 01:40 PM

i check/call the turn, check/call that river.

TomBrooks · #14 03-25-2005, 02:07 PM

Although this occurred prior to the points in the hand you asked about, I'm not sure I like your flop raise because you drive out opponents by making them call two when you would rather have them stay in to pay you more if you make your hand. TomBk

flair1239 · #15 03-25-2005, 02:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Although this occurred prior to the points in the hand you asked about, I'm not sure I like your flop raise because you drive out opponents by making them call two when you would rather have them stay in to pay you more if you make your hand. TomBk

[/ QUOTE ]

There are other potential benefits of the raise, besides value. Namely, buying the button and getting a free card.

wrto4556 · #16 03-25-2005, 02:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Check the turn. You will have to make a flush or straight to win, hence there's not much to gain by having someone fold here.

Bet the river. Check-calling the river is bad. Button will bet only his strongest holding, but MP1 and button will call with much weaker hands. I can't fold this river getting 10 to 1.

[/ QUOTE ]

wabe · #17 03-25-2005, 04:36 PM

He's got a weak flush and low end of the gutshot. By raising, my aim here would be to clear out higher diamonds (in case of 4 flush on the board) or weak queens.

@bsolute_luck · #18 03-25-2005, 05:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
He's got a weak flush and low end of the gutshot. By raising, my aim here would be to clear out higher diamonds (in case of 4 flush on the board) or weak queens.

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm afraid i don't understand this reasoning. i wouldn't think you'd be able to clear out higher diamonds at all and Queens are staying in being TP.

at this point i'm not refuting your idea of raising, but the reasoning behind it.

Shillx · #19 03-25-2005, 05:31 PM

You have to be very careful about people taking random stabs with hands they somehow managed to get to the river with. In this hand the button saw that it got checked to him with a 4-straight on board. Most people bet out when there is four to a straight because it generally kills the action. So when you actually have the straight you lead out and hoped to get called. When both you and MP1 check, he "knows" that no one has a straight so he might just be taking a stab at the pot. Given that you checked the river, you have to overcall here. MP1 almost surely doesn't have a straight here so the button is laying you 10.75:1 odds that he actually has the straight. There is NO WAY you will win this pot less then 1 in 12.75 times. Call it dude.

Brad

wabe · #20 03-25-2005, 06:02 PM

The Q doesn't come out until the turn, so I don't buy the TP argument at this point. Someone with a naked Q should bail on the turn. Also, if someone has T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]x or K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]x, a raise here could push them out. Third, it buys you a free card on the turn if the turn card is a brick.