Hand VS Jimmy V

[SA125]

[ QUOTE ]
Why is it better to raise turn and fold to a 3-bet when calling down turn and river will cost the same but get to showdown? Are you really folding out better hands with the turn raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

I had thought about this and couldn't understood it either. This is what I figured.

You gain more (3 bets) when you're ahead and get called down by a weaker hand. You lose the same (2 bets) when you're a longshot dog and would probably lose at showdown anyway.

Add in the times you check behind, or fire again with a strong hand or a bluff, and your turn raise is less predictable.

I'd like to see some takes on the play by the better players also.

[Turning Stone Pro]

owe you a cockpunch?

No talkin' love on this site, fellas. At least not like this.

TSP

[Turning Stone Pro]

This hand demonstrates what I refer to as the "raise and fold to a 3bet" turn strategy, and why I don't like it.

You have a BB that has shown strength on the flop by check-raising into an UTG preflop raiser. If I was in the BB, I would make this check-raise with a 9 or Q or a flush draw or an open ended straight draw. Why would I do this? To try to knock a guy off a hand like 10-10, AJs, small to medium pocket pair, etc.

I don't like Steve's turn raise here. The reason being is that I think there is a very slim chance the BB will muck for the raise here, especially if the BB is a solid player. He's got something, so it makes sense for the BB to "take one off" to run down what has been represented as AA, KK, QQ, or AQ.

So now, Steve has cost himself at least one extra bet to get to the showdown, and now will muck what might end up being the winning hand at the end.

I think there is just as good a chance that the BB has either one of the following hands: 9 with a good kicker, flush draw or OESD, as he does to have a Q. I would just call the turn, risk giving a free card if he is on the flush or straight draw (since he will call your turn raise anyway), and get to the river.

TSP

[mmcd]

FWIW, I usually just 3-bet the flop, and bet the turn to get my free showdown in this spot. It's 1/2bb cheaper, and I think it keeps his turn action more honest as no one likes to check-raise twice and get 3-bet both times (except for the real donks).

[astroglide]

[ QUOTE ]
This hand demonstrates what I refer to as the "raise and fold to a 3bet" turn strategy

[/ QUOTE ]

wow dude, that's really interesting. i've never heard that 'strategy' mentioned before!

[DcifrThs]

if he's as tricky as you say he is, call him down, see a showdown.

if he knew you play as you do then he has a set/KcQc/AQ much more often than he has a flush draw when he checkraises your flop bet. you raised from under the gun, everybody folded and he called from his bb...

but once again, if he could have TcJc or 9As and play it that way, call him down.

My usual line here is either 1) fold to the flop c'r in this small pot. 2) call the flop fold to turn. or 3) against s tricky or overly agro loose player call down.

-Barron

[Steve Giufre]

[ QUOTE ]
Why is it better to raise turn and fold to a 3-bet when calling down turn and river will cost the same but get to showdown? Are you really folding out better hands with the turn raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

No I doubt I'll ever get a better hand to fold. But when Jimmy does have a hand that is behind, but drawing live, (like AK) I might get him to lay down a hand with outs. Also if he does have a draw, I get the extra bet in, as he might often give up on the river with a club draw. That being said, it might not be worth it to open myself to get outplayed on the turn. It's defintely player dependant.

[Steve Giufre]

I like your post, and I kinda think this line is overrated. However I really dont see how I charge myself an extra bet to get to a showdown. Isnt it the same assuming he leads the river? If he doesnt bet it I am defintely going to.

[JimmyV]

Steve's fold surprised me, and it seems to me that it is obviously correct. I expected him to call me down with AQ or even with the TT that he turns out to have had.

If I'd known it was him I probably would have played it the same way; though just calling the turn and checkraising the river would have occurred to me, I wouldn't have ultimately done that unless I'd been confident that Steve had a hand like TT, both bettable AND foldable.

Given the fact that most people use the flop checkraise heads-up as a single or triple bluff out of the blinds, I think Steve's line is perfect in many scenarios. Against me, who doesn't put on a lot of moves, it made less sense; but since knowing me allowed him to make a good fold I'll call it a wash and a characteristically good play on his part.

The fact that I won't fold many hands he's losing to on the turn is offset, I think, by the fact that I'm very unlikely to fold my speculative hands to his raise, and that he's charging me effectively for my semibluff-posturing.

The flop checkraise with a big hand is a double bluff that I've adopted recently: people look at it as a steal and wait to pop you again on the turn with an overpair. Which is nice when you have, as I did, a set.

Steve folded TT; I had 99 and HFWG.

JimmyV

[Turning Stone Pro]

I'm not sure what your problem is, but drop dead, man.

TSP