$20-$40 Shreveport Hand

[Mason Malmuth]

I don't think you should be that fast to four bet. First, you might make someone drawing dead fold. Second, if a fourth spade comes or the board pairs, you might have saved yourself a bet. Also, you can probably get the raise in on fifth street if a blank hits.

By the way, there is a chance a higher flush is out which is another reason not to take it to four bets.

[MichaelD]

Jim,

I would advise your friend to call the turn and then check-call the river. I would have a very difficult time folding on the turn given the action on the flop. I would really want to bet out the river if the board did not pair and no other spade showed up, but I feel checking and calling is probably the play I would make in this situation.

I can't wait to hear the results.

Just some thoughts...

Michael D.

[Swiss Cheese]

I would have to know the player and know he only three bet s the nut hand here to fold. The solid player on the button could have J-10 10-9s. there is a wide array of hands a solid player could have. Pay him off move on.

Swiss Cheese

[Gabe]

I play mainly at the Commerce. Against most of my opponents, I would never fold. Here they would probably have raised me on the flop, with a K or A high flush draw. I usually would call, and then bet out on the river. If another spade comes, I would consider how likely they would pay off with a worse hand, how often would they bluff, etc.

But the point is that I don't think you can safely conclude that you have the best hand. You have a raiser and a three bettor. While there certainly is not enough evidence to fold, IMO, it would be foolhardy to assume with any degree of confidence that you have the best hand. Reraising for value is therefore very iffy. The other usual reasons for reraising is to get out a hand that can draw out on you - but that's unlikely in this instance. That's what I mean when I mean that "the reraise accomplishes very little".

Andy,

Perhaps, I am wrong but it seems to me that you may be clinging too much to the "raise or fold" mantra which is generally good advice but hey, calling can't be all that bad either in this instance. See my rationale for calling elsewhere in this thread where I appear as an anonymous poster (Dynasty reponded to that post and I reponded to his again under the anonymous tag).

skp

[Ginogino]

By my count there are 11.5 big bets in the pot at the point where the question arises. Your friend has to see the showdown, I think. The question is, then, call or raise. I can't see either opponent just calling the flop bet with Ax/spades, and that's true for many Kx/spades hands as well (though not all of them).

If your friend is behind, check-calling to showdown (absent multiple raises by the opponents on the river) saves money.

If your friend is ahead, a call here creates a check-raise situation on the river (if no pair falls), and this mitigates any loss caused by a failure to raise here. (By the way, I think my game suffers from a failure to check-raise enough on the river. I believe my game - and that of others - would become somewhat more profitable by introducing an element of doubt in an early position check.)

[Jim Brier]

My friend folded fearing that he was up against an ace-high flush or a king-high flush. The cutoff called. The river was a blank. It was checked down. The cutoff had the 7h-7d for a flopped set. The button had the Js-9s for a jack-high flush. My friend folded the winner.

Thanks for the responses.

[bomblade]

I think the cut-off could have a number of hands in this situation. I don't think he has the nut flush, cause I think he'd raise the flop to get a free card. He could have the second nut, but I think the only way to find that out is by reraising. If reraised back, call...check/call. He could easily have a JTs or T8s. He could have a good queen or two pair. By simply calling and checking the river, you can do two things. One, he may check the river too, and you would have missed a bet. Or you could be giving him a free card, and another spade could fall. (He could have AQo, or even A7o.)

[Dynasty]

Anonymous skp,

You can safely conclude that you have the best hand on the turn. The % of that safety is equal to the % certainty that these opponents would have raised the flop with a flushdraw and overcard.