5-5 hand quiz

[turnipmonster]

I thought EP should have checked the turn, he's not worried about free cards and this will cause TP to bet all sorts of hands TP can beat on the river, as well as bluff at it some.

also, I don't think EP should be excited if TP calls the turn, I mean, what can he have? I agree TP could have made more, and think a river checkraise would have been a pretty good move if he can be fairly sure he's not against AA/KK (and I think he was).

[coltrane]

turnip,

honestly, before reading your results I was going to say that I thought TP had an 8 and Raiser had AK.....that's the way their line looks to me.....you say you think they both misplayed it, why? (not saying I don't agree).....do you think Raiser should've checked behind the turn?....do you think TP should've raised the turn once Raiser bet?....here are some of my thoughts:

from raiser's point of view:
okay my flop bet just got called by a tough player, he's got something - it pretty much has to be a king or an 8.......if he has a king I've got him drawing to 3, if he has an 8 I'm drawing to 2.....is TP the type to checkraise the turn with nothing just to put a move on?....doesn't seem likely in this pot......so obviously default is to check behind on the turn, but, will TP call value bets on both the turn and river with KQ?....if yes, I can see a case being made for betting the turn....

from TP's point of view:
it's pretty much as simple as: does Raiser have KK?.....these are tough spots when playing suited connecters and flopping trips/no kicker, particularly out of position.....should TP pretty much be willing to go broke to his hand?.....is there a way to find out if Raiser has KK?.....problem is if TP raises flop and then Raiser smooth calls, when TP bets the turn he might be pot-committed to a raise.......and if TP smooth-calls the flop, checking the turn leaves the possibility of a check-behind by Raiser....and if Raiser bets the turn and TP raises, he's pretty much pot-committed to a reraise by Raiser.....

I have trouble with these situations, it reminds me of a hand I played not too long ago....turnip (or Matt), if you get a minute, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this 5/10 Hand.....

thoughts on everything?.....

[turnipmonster]

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but, will TP call value bets on both the turn and river with KQ?....if yes, I can see a case being made for betting the turn....


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not very likely in this situation.

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it's pretty much as simple as: does Raiser have KK?.....these are tough spots when playing suited connecters and flopping trips/no kicker, particularly out of position.....

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well heads up I think he should be willing to play a pretty big pot if raiser can have something like AK here. lots of people overplay trips in pots that are multiway, but I think heads up vs. a raiser is a whole different ballgame.

--turnipmonster

[Matt Flynn]

EP is as EP does.


if EP felt he could get paid off a decent amount of the time and safely fold to a check-raise on the turn he should bet it. but yes, the default would be to check.

matt

[ML4L]

Hey turnip,

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he could have had AA or KK but I think AA bets more and KK checks the turn.

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Isn't it the other way around...?

Mike

[turnipmonster]

it should be, but in this case I don't think it would have been. many people will check the turn with a monster hoping collect on the river, although I think that's incorrect.

[Dr. Strangelove]

It occurs to me that barring some great read, the TP can't really call an all in on the river with anything but 88, or a freak kk or aa, if the EP is any kind of reasonable player that would just call with AK.

[IgorSmiles]

[ QUOTE ]
I thought EP should have checked the turn, he's not worried about free cards and this will cause TP to bet all sorts of hands TP can beat on the river, as well as bluff at it some.

also, I don't think EP should be excited if TP calls the turn, I mean, what can he have? I agree TP could have made more, and think a river checkraise would have been a pretty good move if he can be fairly sure he's not against AA/KK (and I think he was).

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I think I'm more confused. EP should check the turn looking to induce a bluff? Then how much should he be willing to commit on the turn and river if and when TP bets? And when will he know that he's beat. By betting the turn, he's gotta at least have some idea where he stands.

I agree when TP calls the turn, EP has to know he's got problems which is why I cant see why you think TP should check raise the river. If EP has any sense at this point, he's done betting and cant be too happy about calling the $500 river bet. If TP checks, EP turns up his A/K and hopes it's good. The $500 is just right to get a call, so I think TP did just fine but maybe could've taken the lead at some point and gotten a few more bucks.

[turnipmonster]

main point is that EP will rarely be ahead when his turn bet is called, however if he checks the turn he gets showdown for about the same price as a turn bet and also will sometimes induce a bluff/value bet from a weaker hand.

in my opinion EP took a line that, if he makes it to a showdown he will lose a lot of times. TP play was ok, but I think he could have made more getting in a raise somewhere, because as matt said EP might not make the laydown required.

--turnipmonster

[Chris Dow]

Just because people don't lead big hands anymore and this line wasn't even mentioned... What about TP leading the flop? I would like to hear turnip's or someone elses opinion about how the hand is going to play out when TP leads. I just find it interesting that lead isn't considered, especially for a guy who usually takes the aggressive approach!