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#11
02-15-2005, 12:52 AM
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Re: ed miller wiating until the turn raise
Incorrect.
You are making less money on his calls than you would be on his folds. You are STILL making money on his calls. 
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#12
02-15-2005, 12:57 AM
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Re: ed miller wiating until the turn raise
[ QUOTE ]
You are STILL making money on his calls. [/ QUOTE ] Correct. I forgot to mention this. Betting is better than checking. But when he calls your bet, it is worse than when he folds or raises.
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#13
02-15-2005, 01:05 AM
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Re: ed miller wiating until the turn raise
I'll take KK against AQ with a Q high flop every time......You can have AQ and we'll play the hand 1000 times per day....
I can bet, you can call, I can bet the turn and river blanks, and you can call them....You can catch a Q or A every 8 hands or so, and you'll take some pots down.... But eventually, all your BBs will be mine....
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#14
02-15-2005, 01:39 AM
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Re: ed miller wiating until the turn raise
Reread it.
Sometimes you aren't in a position to protect your hand, so you bet for value. This is the answer to your question. Sometimes opportunities will present themselves for you to protect your hand well with a raise or checkraise. In those situations, it's often worth going for it even if you might lose some value sometimes because the round gets checked through. But other times, it's very unlikely that you'll get a chance to protect your hand. In those cases, you should simply bet to avoid giving a free card. In your KK example, I would tend to bet the flop, not go for a check-raise. I think the flop gets checked through too often to make checking worthwhile.
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#15
02-15-2005, 01:43 AM
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Re: ed miller wiating until the turn raise
You might CALL a bet on the flop, planning to raise the turn, depending on your relative position to the original bettor. However, I would never, ever, ever, ever, ever, check KK through on a Q high flop. And I'm not very good. Reread the pages you are referencing and most things will be clear.
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#16
02-15-2005, 02:52 AM
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Re: ed miller wiating until the turn raise
definitely. I just said "it's clear" that AQ should call. This is because of circumstances, this is a 1 card draw. If AQ misses the turn, he should fold the turn bet, if AQ hits the turn, KK has an easy fold to raise. It's only unclear in situations where there are mutliple things that can happen on 2 cards that complicate the decision if cards are up HU.
AQ is the dog here everytime, but between folding the flop calling,and raising, (knowing the cards) calling is the correct choice. That is all we are talking about. nobody said AQ is in any way a favorite.
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#17
02-15-2005, 10:46 AM
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Re: ed miller wiating until the turn raise
Inchoatehand
You would never ever ever check KK on a Q high flop? Look at Poker essays 111 pg188 checking AA on a K 6 4 rainbow flop with 15 2/3 in the pot. Mason checked his AA and i quote "because the size of the pot,it is correct for many weak hands to call." In addition," but there is another reason to check. Someone else might bet into you on fourth street with a weaker hand than your aces-and this could include an outright steal-and your susequent raise might knock out a hand behind you which would have drawn out on the river". Seems to me that never ever ever might not be correct thinking as the pot gets bigger and bigger.Before commenting please read pg.188-190 Checking AA and see what you think. Ice
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#18
02-15-2005, 11:00 AM
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Re: ed miller wiating until the turn raise
Two things...
1. The "waiting for the turn to raise" only applies to "Extremely Large Pots". A raised 5-handed PF hand doesn't meet this criteria even though the pot is large. Not only that, you have nothing to raise. 2. You can't give out free cards here. Bet the flop.
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#19
02-15-2005, 11:01 AM
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Re: ed miller wiating until the turn raise
Dylanwade
But the guy with AQ is NOT making a mistake CALLING. He's getting 11-1 from the pot and he is an 8.4-1 dog to take off one card on the flop.Thus he is getting the right price to proceed whether you bet or not.If you don't bet he is getting infinite odds which is even worse but if you check and he bets into you on the turn you can now raise and Maybe improve your expectation of winning the pot.I believe that is the concept that Mason was trying to get across,however, situations come up where checking the flop can create everyone checking to you again and everyone folds and you lose all the flop bets which is a lot of money.I guess these plays are situational dependent and you just have to make the best guesstimate at the time. Ice
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#20
02-15-2005, 11:06 AM
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Re: ed miller wiating until the turn raise
Qtip
What do you mean it doesn't apply here? There are 11sb in the pot and now the gutshot has odds to draw.He is NOT making a mistake calling even though if the pot was 20sb he would be getting even better odds. In both cases he is not making a mistake with 11sb or more in the pot.Ice
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