Alan Keyes' Daughter Coming Out

[TransientR]

I don't quite know when it happened, but somehow "standing up for what you believe," became a virtue no matter what you believe in.

I would have this argument with Bush voters all the time. "Do you like his policies re. xyz?" "No... "

Then why are you voting for him?

"He is a man who follows through on his strongly held beliefs."

Yeah, and so was Hitler.

Here is a hard fact of life - Belief, no matter how strongly held, in-and-of-itself, doesn't necessarily have any relation to truth.

Frank

[Zygote]

where did you get the idea that he disowned his daughter?

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
where did you get the idea that he disowned his daughter?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well,
[ QUOTE ]
Marcel-Keyes told the Post her parents have thrown her out of the house, stopped speaking to her and refuse to pay for college because she is gay. She said she loves her parents.


[/ QUOTE ]

While not actually said, it seems pretty inferred there.

PLEASE don't tell me you're gonna mince the actual words here...

[EarlCat]

[ QUOTE ]
I believe that diversity is part of what makes out country great.

[/ QUOTE ]

Diversity is a red herring. Individualism and achievement is what made our country great. Diversity in and of itself means nothing.

[ QUOTE ]
...and most of the people who are the main protagonists of this kind of discussion probably don't know a THING about poker; which happens to be the main format of this website.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, the site is mainly about poker, but what the hell does that have to do with its politics forum? If you wanted poker talk you clicked the wrong link.

[ QUOTE ]
I'd prefer cranks such as yourself find a crank website that better suits your needs, which appears to be many, since most like INTELLIGENT discourse here. But hey, it's a free country(mostly).

[/ QUOTE ]

Just what we need, cranks posting on sites with only people who agree with them and eliminating the chance that anyone will be able to set them straight. Maybe you don't change any minds because you're too busy calling people names instead of soundly defeating their arguments.

[Chris Alger]

[ QUOTE ]
Individualism and achievement is what made our country great. Diversity in and of itself means nothing.


[/ QUOTE ]
I suspect most conservatives and right-wing libertarians agree. If you asked, for example, the delegates at the last GOP convention about their feelings toward "individualism" and "diversity," you'd get a huge positive response to the former and a lukewarm or negative response to the latter.

Which is sad and funny because individualism is a more extreme, arguably the most extreme, form of human diversity and diversity is a prerequisite to individualism.

How to explain this? "Individualism" to conservatives amounts to hero-worship of a handful of inventor-entrepreneur-artist Ubermenschen with everyone else atomized and isolated, incapable of expressing or enforcing any collective will, lest it shackle the freedom of the heros. "Diversity" means queers of color teaching our kids. Overwhelmed by the diversity of views they don't share, they latch onto propaganda buzzwords they don't understand (and aren't supposed to understand) as a substitute for individual critical thought.

[Dynasty]

It's amazing how much Keyes' credibility has crashed in the past year. Frist, he ran for the Senate outside his home state contradicting staments he made about Hillary Clinton. Now this.

If the information in the article concerning how he is relating to his daughter is reasonably accurate, even most cultural conservatives will abandon him.

[El Barto]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You preach tolerance, but have been found wanting of being truly tolerant yourself. Of course, this is true of many if not most of those that preach the loudest about tolerance.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's silly to ask tolerant people to be more tolerant of intolerant beliefs. It's like saying: "you shouldn't consider Nazis as bigoted hatemongers, after all they're just standing up for what they believe in, good for them!"

When religious beliefs and their proponents become forces for oppression and the perpetuation of atavistic stereotypes then the tolerant and reasonable person is obligated to stop tolerating and start protesting/ objecting, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]


The man speaks the truth. Should we be "tolerant" of certain Muslim beliefs that women should be subservient and that death is normal punishment for disobeyance and a weak dowry?

Nice try.

[/ QUOTE ]

You both miss the point here. Keyes has not done anything "against" his daughter. Not talking and witholding money is not a hate crime.

To compare Keyes restrained actions to Hitler or Muslim control laws is wrong. There is no evidence that Keyes wants to do anything but help his daughter.

It amazes me how intolerant people who claim to be tolerant can be.

Throwing around words of tolerance is not the same as being tolerant. I see no toleration of Keyes beliefs here, and he had done nothing intolerant as far as we can tell.

It sounds like a good tolerant parent not to try and fight family spats in the public media. Keyes has avoided fighting in the media while his daughter is on the attack here.

[MMMMMM]

Keyes does seem more extreme now than back around the time of the 2000 election (when I saw him in debate briefly).

While we don't know much of the Keyes family's interpersonal dynamics, if the story is taken at face value it does seem like a pretty sad thing.

[bholdr]

[ QUOTE ]
It amazes me how intolerant people who claim to be tolerant can be...
I see no toleration of Keyes beliefs here, and he had done nothing intolerant as far as we can tell.

[/ QUOTE ]
except support a constitutional ban on gay marrige, publicly state that homosexuals are sinners and degenerates, etc...
his veiws are NOT to be tolerated, like the views of Nazis are not to be tolerated (the difference between the two is one of degree, not kind). you seem to think that people that claim to be tolerant should value all opinions equally. that's not the case at all. should MLK have 'tolerated' the views of the Klan? Should abolitionists have 'tolerated' the opinions of slaveholders? additionally, i am VERY tolerant of people like Keyes, both in the public sphere and in my own life. It's their opinions that i dislike and will continiue to oppose. I don't 'hate' keyes for his caveman opinions, in fact, i respect his honesty, consistancy and obvious passion for his work. i wonder if he hates homosexuals because they are gay?

etc.. etc...

[Zygote]

My apologies, you appear to be correct. I got a differnt impression from Maya Keyes during her interview with Wolfe Blitzer. She didn't say anything about her parents disowning her and implied that they simply disaprove and that is all. She also said she loved her parents and they love her.

Anyways, i'm personally against the church or family values groups trying to convert the world to their ideals and, therefore, am pro-gay rights. Alan Keyes, imo, should respect his daughters choice to be gay becasue it doesn't stop him form continuing to chose to be straight.