Muslim Honor Killings

[Chris Alger]

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The Italian-American Mafia has long been a problem in the U.S. too...

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That's not what you said. You said the mafia is a problem not merely in those places where it exists (almost self-evident) but that it is a "significant problem" "in" Italian culture. How do you explain to Italians that their culture is significantly flawed or problematic because of the mafia?

[zaxx19]

Yes, Sicilian culture is.

[MMMMMM]

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You said the mafia is a problem not merely in those places where it exists (almost self-evident) but that it is a "significant problem" "in" Italian culture. How do you explain to Italians that their culture is significantly flawed or problematic because of the mafia?

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I didn't say that their culture was significantly flawed or problematic. I said that a specific problem within it was significant.

Perhaps you are having a bit of trouble with this. Here is an example which may help:

Say you have a barrel of apples. There is a handful of rotten apples at the bottom of the barrel. Now which of the following statements, given the above, is true?

A) that there is a significant problem in that barrel of apples

B) that the barrel of apples itself is significantly flawed or problematic

If you picked statement "A", you got it right. Now apply that conceptualization to the above, and hopefully you will see what I was saying.

[bholdr]

well put, mmmmmmm, nh.

[Chris Alger]

1. In your apple barrel analogy, then aren't you saying that Italian culture is inferior to other cultures in the same sense that a barrell with some bad apples in it is inferior to a barrell with no bad apples in it? If so, just how do you explain to an Italian that the mafia makes his culture inferior to yours?

Or are you conceding that the mafia is minor part of the cultural whole, no more worth considering than the "bad apples" of various stripes found in every culture, so that the mafia should play no role in shaping attitudes toward and opinions of Italian culture?

2. If the latter, that the mafia shouldn't affect attitudes toward and opinions of Italian culture, why should a handful of honor killing perpetrators affect our attitudes toward and opinions of Palestinian or Arab cultures (cultures which you have criticized ad nauseum as inferior to Israeli and American cultures because of things like honor killings)?

[PokerCat69]

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Organized crime is an especially significant problem in Russia, Columbia, and Italy.

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Actually China holds the record here. Their TRIAD Organization has over 100K members world wide. Read this in a guiness world records.

[Cyrus]

There you have it. I knew MMMMMM has a lot of original insights in 'im.

It's all a matter of squeezing 'em out.

[img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

(Without causing 'im hemorroids, of course.)

[MMMMMM]

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1. In your apple barrel analogy, then aren't you saying that Italian culture is inferior to other cultures in the same sense that a barrell with some bad apples in it is inferior to a barrell with no bad apples in it?

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No.

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If so, just how do you explain to an Italian that the mafia makes his culture inferior to yours?



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I didn't say Italian culture was inferior to my culture. And except for the Mafia part, I quite like Italian culture.

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Or are you conceding that the mafia is minor part of the cultural whole,...

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False dichotomy.

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...no more worth considering than the "bad apples" of various stripes found in every culture,...

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It is worth considering because it is more of a problem than it would be if it were merely individual criminals, because it is an organization of criminals, and as such can accomplish more crime more effectively. Also, there is a Mafia sub-culture of sorts, and ordinary people must be mindful of the Mafia to some extent, most especially in Sicily (and, by the way, in Russia, where the Russian Mafia routinely shakes down Mom&Pop enterprises. Shopkeepers in Moscow are prime targets for these extortions.)

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...so that the mafia should play no role in shaping attitudes toward and opinions of Italian culture?

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It should not be ignored, so I don't think it is correct of you to say "no role".

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2. If the latter, that the mafia shouldn't affect attitudes toward and opinions of Italian culture,

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As above, it should not be ignored.

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why should a handful of honor killing perpetrators affect our attitudes toward and opinions of Palestinian or Arab cultures

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Because those are very real problems in those cultures, and they should not be ignored. Also, it is perhaps a bit more more than merely "a handful" regarding honor killings. Honor killings, and acid attacks in some cases, are not exactly popular but they occur often enough so that various human rights/women's rights groups have said that honor killings are a significant problem.

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(cultures which you have criticized ad nauseum as inferior to Israeli and American cultures because of things like honor killings)?

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Palestinian and Arab cultures have a great many more things wrong with them than just honor killings. Glorification of suicide bombing, a long and pervasive history of human rights abuses, severe repression of women, and severe repression of non-Muslims, to name a few. Contrast this with the Italian culture which has really only the Mafia/corruption problem to be concerned about.

[MMMMMM]

Thanks for the info., PokerCat. Sounds like maybe they should make the list too.

[Chris Alger]

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Me: "then aren't you saying that Italian culture is inferior to other cultures in the same sense that a barrell with some bad apples in it is inferior to a barrell with no bad apples in it?"
You: "no" -- although -- "except for the Mafia part, I quite like Italian culture."

ME: "the mafia should play no role in shaping attitudes toward and opinions of Italian culture?"
You: "it should not be ignored"

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So on the one hand you contend that the mafia imposes no stigma of inferiority on Italian culture. On the other hand you like Italian culture "except for the Mafia part" and believe that the Mafia, a very bad thing, should play some role in our attitudes toward and opinions of Italian culture.

Doesn't this strike you as contradictory? If the Mafia went away, wouldn't that elevate your opinion of Italian culture, so that the presence of the Mafia makes that culture inferior to those without the Mafia?

Bottom line: isn't it true that you believe that Italian culture has at least much responsibility for causing the Mafia as Palestinian culture has in causing honor killings? Don't you also contend that Palestinian political rights should be diminished or restricted on account of their cultural inferiority, at least in the sense that Palestinians have less rights than Jews to a fully indpenedent, fully sovereign state in the former Palestine?

If so, why shouldn't the political rights of Italians be diminished, at least to some degree, because of the Mafia?

Surely it's not because you think Palestinians have a longerer heritage of human rights abuse, glorification of martyrdom and discrimination against women that those cultures that can fairly be called Italian.

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"Also, it is perhaps a bit more more than merely "a handful" regarding honor killings."

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And it is "perhaps" less than a handful. What's your point here, other than creating the pretense that the problem is greater than you know it to be?

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Honor killings, and acid attacks in some cases, are not exactly popular but they occur often enough so that various human rights/women's rights groups have said that honor killings are a significant problem.

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But you contend that it's a significant problem that is actually caused by Palestinian and Arab culture, something that is "wrong with" those cultures, in apparently the same way that you think "Italian culture" bears responsibility for the Mafia. No human rights group has ever or will ever make any such statement.