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#1
02-08-2005, 10:34 AM
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Re: One more hand with the fishies...
[ QUOTE ]
(a) Do you guys ever change the way you play hands, or are you playing so systematically that you will play these hands the same way every time? [/ QUOTE ] There is no value in changing the way you play AJs against 4 limpers. Push your edge when you have it. Even more so, these 90% of these players are not paying attention to the way you play, and even if they were, your costing yourself more here by not raising your premium holding than gaining something by being deceptive. [ QUOTE ] Is there a cutoff number of players left in the hand where you wouldn't bet the river here? Or is this a value bet regardless? [/ QUOTE ] Should be a value bet regardless if no one has shown any indication you are beaten. There are too many holdings that will call one last bet that you will miss out on by checking. 
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#2
02-08-2005, 10:41 AM
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Re: One more hand with the fishies...
[ QUOTE ]
I have 2 questions then: (a) Do you guys ever change the way you play hands, or are you playing so systematically that you will play these hands the same way every time? (After reviewing this question, it sounded kind of rude... I don't mean it to be... just an honest curiosity) (b) Is there a cutoff number of players left in the hand where you wouldn't bet the river here? Or is this a value bet regardless? [/ QUOTE ] a.) Against thinking TAGs i'll vary my play somewhat especially HU, but a pre-flop raise of a few limpers with AJs on the button is pretty standard +EV. You label all these people as fishies, then why not just beat them senseless with ABC/ maximizing EV poker? b. No. Even against 9 others this is a clear value bet.
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#3
02-08-2005, 10:59 AM
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Re: One more hand with the fishies...
[ QUOTE ]
Do you guys ever change the way you play hands, or are you playing so systematically that you will play these hands the same way every time? [/ QUOTE ] Others have already mentioned that the two fish in this hand, at least, are unlikely to notice patterns in your play. I just wanted to add that you shouldn't be thinking of this as playing AJs the same way every time...rather, you should be thinking of this as playing a PFR hand the same way every time. There are obvious exceptions depending on the board and opponents, but generally speaking, I will play any of my preflop raise hands like I would AA on the flop and turn. At least until someone else in the hand shows some aggression. If a good player at my table notices the pattern, that still tells him absolutely nothing about what I'm holding in a given hand.
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#4
02-08-2005, 12:12 PM
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Re: One more hand with the fishies...
[ QUOTE ]
If a good player at my table notices the pattern, that still tells him absolutely nothing about what I'm holding in a given hand. [/ QUOTE ] This topic has taken an interesting direction that I did not forsee when I was posting it.... My thinking in changing up my play on hands like this is not a function of trying to be deceptive - I already know that most of the players aren't even thinking about what they hold much less, what I'm holding. My thinking in changing up play every once in awhile is to not always seem like a big bully - and to have the fish enjoy playing with me at the table.... Is there any merit in this thought process.... or as most of you have suggested, should I stick to my ABC's and just get the money in when it's good? If there is merit to this thought, I would also think that this is an appropriate time to take advantage of it. First, because I'm already in position - no need to buy the button. Second, as we all know many fish will often limp with big pairs and AK/AQ - although the chance I'm dominated is very small it's still slightly possible. Lastly, I've got a good drawing hand and don't really mind the blinds coming into the pot cheaply and out of position if I happen to hit a monster. Maybe I'm way off base here but, hopefully it will spur some additional discussion.....
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#6
02-08-2005, 12:20 PM
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Re: One more hand with the fishies...
[ QUOTE ]
My thinking in changing up play every once in awhile is to not always seem like a big bully - and to have the fish enjoy playing with me at the table.... [/ QUOTE ] You're playing with fish to make money, not to make friends with them.
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#7
02-08-2005, 01:28 PM
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Re: One more hand with the fishies...
[ QUOTE ]
My thinking in changing up play every once in awhile is to not always seem like a big bully - and to have the fish enjoy playing with me at the table.... [/ QUOTE ] You can accomplish this and still take advantage of all your +EV situations just with some friendly table chatter and a few "nh"s. Besides which, while this might just be my mind playing tricks on me, it seems that when I'm PFR'ing a lot the mediocre players seem even more likely to cold call preflop and call me down with ridiculous hands, which only makes it even more +EV to raise. [ QUOTE ] Second, as we all know many fish will often limp with big pairs and AK/AQ - although the chance I'm dominated is very small it's still slightly possible. [/ QUOTE ] You can't even consider that as a possibility. A good player will sometimes limp AA or KK to encourage more action; that doesn't mean you shouldn't raise your AJs on the button against him. [ QUOTE ] Lastly, I've got a good drawing hand and don't really mind the blinds coming into the pot cheaply and out of position if I happen to hit a monster. [/ QUOTE ] Your typical loose/passive will call no matter what you do or what the board looks like; he's only playing his hand & hoping for the best. Your typical loose/aggressive will raise with any piece of the board (sometimes without even that) no matter what you have, especially if you flop a true monster that seems very unlikely for you to hold (i.e., a JJJ flop). Your more average player will fold a poor hand if you bet. So, basically, if you flop a monster hand, whether or not you raised preflop has zero effect on any of these players. You have, however, given up 1 SB per player by not raising.
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#8
02-08-2005, 11:59 AM
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Re: One more hand with the fishies...
[ QUOTE ]
I have 2 questions then: (a) Do you guys ever change the way you play hands, or are you playing so systematically that you will play these hands the same way every time? (After reviewing this question, it sounded kind of rude... I don't mean it to be... just an honest curiosity) [/ QUOTE ] As many have pointed out, there is probably no need to mix up your play in an online 2/4 game. Your opponents won't notice your deception and you probably don't play the same opponents every day. Second, you should play a hand differently if there is a specific reason to do so, not just for the hell of it. The other day I just called a raise from a tricky player in the BB with AK where I would normally re-raise. The reason I did this is that there was a weak EP limper already in and I did not want to knock him out and play the hand heads-up against the tricky player. Sure enough, I missed the flop and bet, the weak player called and the tricky player folded. The turn didn't improve me, but I bet anyway and won the pot. I'm not entirely sure that this was the correct strategy, but at least I had a reason for mixing it up. Third, if you are going to mix up your play, this is the absolute worst time to do it. You are just giving up too much EV in this situation. You have a premium hand on the button against a large crowd of loose limpers. The mistake you made here is worse than say raising 87s UTG or folding AK in early position. You are on the button! Don't pass up large +EV opportunities for the sake of deception. Save your deception for marginal situations like raising with a hand you should call. [ QUOTE ] (b) Is there a cutoff number of players left in the hand where you wouldn't bet the river here? Or is this a value bet regardless? [/ QUOTE ] Being last to act and everyone checking to me on every street, I suppose I would bet into any number of opponents. I think you had about 3 left on the river in this hand, so your bet will often be called by 1 or 2 worse hands. Even if you lose this bet the majority of the times you make it and are check-raised occasionaly, the bet is still profitable. If Dynasty were still on the small stakes board he would say something like, "You'll never beat the mid-stakes games." I'm just going to say that you are not getting the maximum value out of your good hands. That's a big problem.
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