50-100 Hand

[Ryno]

Maybe - it's just one of those things that sticks out as odd. He bets, the CO just calls, and you raise. He would read the CO as weak for not trying to raise you out, so he should 3-bet with just about anything he would cap preflop OOP with. He didn't. You have nothing on the turn and he gave you a free card, and my gut is that he made a fancy play that cost him some bets, and possibly the pot.

[mike l.]

"If I bet this turn isnt it possible they give me credit for a Queen and fold 88 or something?"

not in the world i live in.

[astroglide]

[ QUOTE ]
the free card play is underused. good work

[/ QUOTE ]

you're right, because normally it takes 4 bets to get a "free card" when there's an obvious draw on the flop

[mike l.]

"normally it takes 4 bets to get a "free card" when there's an obvious draw on the flop"

definitely playing more aggro players at higher limits. but for the average mid limit game (say 20-40 speed, generally pretty wimpy) it's still pretty easy to get to the river pretty cheap if you have position and semi-cautious/easily tricked opponents (easy to find). plus the way betters play is they pound the pot a lot, especially when checked to, so that makes for good cover the times you do want to check behind.

[HiatusOver]

So what do you do on this flop Astro?

[astroglide]

with both dudes in for four bets you can't love the free card play, even with perfect position, because the threat of getting threebet is really high. if the sb plays 'em fast, it's a doomed play. if they're the type to duck down and checkraise the turn, your free card will work but then you get the openraiser facing 2 bets cold if you bet a turned flush. i would be inclined to call. you get an extra big bet, possibly more when you raise a flush on the turn because it looks like you were playing the big pair turn raising game (especially since people are much less likely to put a preflop reraiser on the one possible flush suit out there). if the original guy called 2 back i don't think you're going to clean up any ace outs on the flop if the blind threebets either.

[Paluka]

I think you can 3 bet too often on the flop for this play to work. Raising the turn might be viable if the middle guy fold to the sb's bet. Raising both guys on the turn is folly.

[HiatusOver]

Astro and Paluka...just calling this flop seems like Anti-Poker to me, but maybe I am wrong. What about the equity I get when more money goes in on this flop? As it turned out the hand went pretty well...a lot of money went in on the flop when i had probably on average 12 outs twice, no money went in on the turn when my equity went way down...seems like bets going in on this flop can never be too wrong for me

[mike l.]

there's one more great thing about your turn check. a lot of times when the flop raiser checks the turn after a lot of preflop action, middle of the road mid limit players check with hands they should bet on the river. meaning they may check something like 55 or AK hoping to check call with it and catch a bluff or just get to the showdown the pot's big enough. also they may strangely enough decide to not bluff with a hand like A8 no pair or KQ or something that likely wont win a showdown because they see the flop raise, turn check as a defensive play on your part with a medium pair or AK that hopes to just call one more bet on the river no matter what and see the showdown in a medium sized pot. hope that makes sense because ive seen that a lot and it's an important but advanced concept, a situation that does come up enough to think about, but is sort of hard to pin down unless you really think about it. so AT will win some showdowns it shouldnt by what looks like a defensive turn check.

and i think astroglide will tear this one apart saying something like "well then why not just bet the turn?" even though i bet he knows what i mean.

[astroglide]

it's not a big deal one way or the other. the only way you can screw up this hand is to fold on the flop. i like assuring the chances of getting in a definite 2 and possibly 3 big bets on the turn with 100% equity. if both people are in for all bets on the flop you're pre-pumping a draw with even odds, which is fine too (and less transparent because it was 4 bets preflop). i just try to look for spots where i can grab a pissed or misguided raise or reraise on the big bet streets.