QQ hand - do you do anything differently?

[Cooker]

I don't think there is any chance in the world I fold this hand on the flop. I have had it 3 bet to me and folded top pair only to have the showdown be second pair vs. ace high vs. Top pair with a weaker kicker on the end with plenty of betting and raising (none from the best hand) the rest of the way. Granted, I quickly pegged those 2 as extreme lags and cleaned them out, but my point is that too much random crap happens in the Micro limits to allow me to even consider folding an over pair unless I already knew that all the bettors and raisers were very passive players.

Sure some players won't reraise without 2 pair or a set, but many will put in several raises with top pair weak kicker or an over pair, so without a read, I am calling this down most of the time. I would say they are just as likely to have JJ and A9 as they are to have 77 and 99. And note that against 2 pair you have 5 outs on the flop and 8 on the end.

Given the fact that they raised and cold called 3 bets preflop with 77 and 99 I am thinking they tend to overplay many hands so I am even more likely to stay in on the flop (I am using this info in order to surmise what kind of read you should have had on them since none was provided).

[cold_cash]

Well we didn't know at the time these guys were super aggro w/ medium pairs.

Let's say that you call all the flop bets, but don't hit your 2-outer on the turn, (because let's face it, you're not going to very often). MP1 bets out, and the flop-capping CO is sitting right behind you with a boner. Now what? Are you ready to pay 8 big bets to see a showdown?

[Hojglad]

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Well we didn't know at the time these guys were super aggro w/ medium pairs.

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That's one of the reasons I was willing to call their raises and re-raises on the flop. I figured AKs, AQs, maybe AA or KK was likely.

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Now what? Are you ready to pay 8 big bets to see a showdown?

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Hell no. If this betting behavior continues on the turn (even to a non-threatening turn card) I'm folding. Even though I'm ahead on the flop the great majority of the time when this hand is played, this is not the great majority of the time. The betting pattern suggests holdings that are NOT the general case. Quite simply put, I started to see monsters. When the last 3 hit, I was scared shitless. It was just one of those times when you gulp and raise it up anyway.

[Shillx]

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Well we didn't know at the time these guys were super aggro w/ medium pairs.

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That's one of the reasons I was willing to call their raises and re-raises on the flop. I figured AKs, AQs, maybe AA or KK was likely.

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Now what? Are you ready to pay 8 big bets to see a showdown?

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Hell no. If this betting behavior continues on the turn (even to a non-threatening turn card) I'm folding. Even though I'm ahead on the flop the great majority of the time when this hand is played, this is not the great majority of the time. The betting pattern suggests holdings that are NOT the general case. Quite simply put, I started to see monsters. When the last 3 hit, I was scared shitless. It was just one of those times when you gulp and raise it up anyway.

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You are digging a deeper hole for yourself here. You state that you have "No Reads" in the original post, and you go on to say that AKs/AQs are possible holdings eventhough there isn't a flush draw possible on the flop. This makes just about no sense at all. There is no way that a default player is playing AKs this way.

If you are calling the flop because you feel like your hand is good, then you are pretty much going to a showdown. If a blank falls on 4th, you still have to assume that your hand is good. If you make the call on the flop (you don't have odds to continue if you are behind), you should be taking this baby to the end barring some crazy [censored].

Brad

[Cooker]

Sorry, I missed the part about him not having any reads, so I was trying to use the information given to provide the reads I thought he should have had. However, the part about the players being abit LAG was just icing on the cake assuming typical micro limit play, and I thought that was quite clear from my previous post.

The decision on this hand really depends mostly on the types of players more than anything else. Like I said, I think he is just as likely to get shown A9 and JJ as he is 99 and 77 by typical micro limit players with this flop action. There is still a huge range of hands the 2 villains can hold, many of which the hero is ahead of and to fold a winner in huge pot is a major mistake.

I probably cap the flop myself and plan to see just how much CO likes seeing 2 big bets facing him on the turn even if my hand doesn't improve. I will fold if I don't improve and it is reraised on the turn, but I have seen so many people go crazy with top pair and overpairs, that I am not sure that I am behind on the flop. I might consider folding on the flop if I was stuck calling 2 more bets, the pot was small, and I had a strong read that one of the players was very passive. In this hand we have no reads, so I am thinking a big overpair has a good chance to be best and I will see how much they like their hands for double sized bets.

[Hojglad]

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If a blank falls on 4th, you still have to assume that your hand is good. If you make the call on the flop (you don't have odds to continue if you are behind), you should be taking this baby to the end barring some crazy [censored].


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If a blank falls on 4th, and they continue raising and re-raising, isn't it pretty safe to assume that they have a pair of queens beat? With regards to crazy [censored], this entire hand pretty much fit the description, wouldn't you agree? Capping by two mid pocket pairs, set over set over set. I'm not taking a pair of queens to the showdown when the turn is capped. Sorry. There is no way that someone caps the turn with top pair, or even two pair. With a flop like this, I think I'm ahead of a bet. I might even be ahead of a raise. As several people have pointed out though, I am almost drawing dead when it is three bet on the flop (whether it be a higher pocket pair, or a set).

Barring the miracle turn Q (which may not even have wound up saving me), I'm folding this turn. I definitely plan on playing this scenario a lot differently in the future.

[cold_cash]

My point was that since you don't have the requisite odds to draw at a 2-outer on the flop, by calling the flop bets you're assuming your hand is best.

In other words, you're saying "I don't have odds to draw, but I'm calling anyway; therefore I believe my Queens are the best hand."

If a blank falls on the turn, and your opponents are still betting and raising, why would you all of the sudden believe you were then trailing? If you're afraid of a turn-blank, you shouldn't have called the flop.

[Hojglad]

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In other words, you're saying "I don't have odds to draw, but I'm calling anyway; therefore I believe my Queens are the best hand."

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I'm just curious, how often is this line of reasoning correct in the presence of the heavy action both pre and post-flop? I thought my hand was the best right here. When the flop was three bet and capped, that's when I started smelling a set. Given that I had just sat at the table and had no real reads on any of the players, is a fold the best play in a general situation like this with similar action?

The reason I ask is that I have been on the other side of hands like these quite a few times. The more I think about it, the more I want to fold the flop after my bet is raised and re-raised. That being said though, I probably wouldn't have been able to handle the queen falling on the turn. Oh well.

I got lost in a moment of panic when the action was on me. My call was one of confusion and is largely why I posted the hand here. I appreciate the time you are taking with this, cold cash.

[Cooker]

This is faulty logic. One should consider the chances that he thinks he is ahead plus the chances that he might improve in order to make calls and raises on every round. If the opponents continue betting, you should adjust the chances that you are ahead and the range of holdings you think they have.

One could easily say that they are 60% sure they are beaten on the flop (which means call), and when the raise comes around on the turn say now I am 95% sure I am beaten which probably means fold.

I have made enough great laydowns on the flop that turned out to have been incorrect (one in a very similarly played hand where all they turned up were TT and second pair with a gutshot to my QQ) at the Micro limits to know that you don't fold in big pots unless you are sure.

[DeathDonkey]

Hey it happens. You have an overpair in a big pot and you go along for the ride. Then they keep raising and suddenly you realize its not looking quite so rosy. Its not the worst thing in the world to change your read on a player say between the flop and the turn. Its just not consistent, which everyone is pointing out.

Here's where the bell should go off though. MP1 caps preflop, then check- 3 bets the flop. It looks exactly like AA to me but of course 99 is the same as AA on this flop. That is not a typical play and alarms should go off in your head when you see something like that.

The spot where you now want to fold on the flop is the right spot, but certainly not the easiest thing to do.

Next time you post a hand like this consider posting only the action up until its back on you on the flop. Stop it at the spot where you had the tough decision. The rest of the hand really plays itself and we can focus on what you had a hard time with.

Later,
DeathDonkey