Vexing situation I continue to be unable to solve.

[cpk]

Even the YGA crowd, it would seem, wouldn't be 3-betting too many hands (maybe suited 7's) preflop, would they? Or are they that loose-aggressive preflop?

Players fitting this profile (they don't have to be Asian, but they often are) are capable of giving this kind of action preflop with absolutely anything. However, they tend to play sanely postflop--chances are actually really good that they will have a bare 7 here. I see it rolled over on me nearly constantly, and I feel like a real dumbass for calling it down.

Usually, I'll see overpairs and decent draws played fast and loose, but a raise here smacks soundly of "get a pair go from there," and they just got hooked up with the 7. Rarely, it's a slowplayed set or two pair that just filled up.

An OP here would most likely have cold-called with a suited 7 (A7, K7). The pot might be large enough to 3-bet them in this case (raising to defend against a semibluff is better than calling), and perhaps this is where I can improve my play. It would also buy a lot of "respect" from the YGA crowd, as they will tend not to get cute against someone capable of three-betting here. Far too often I go limp when confronted with this kind of violence on the turn. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Running bad just makes me timid, I guess.

I guess the point of this post is that I wonder sometimes if I can save 2BB here and 2BB there by getting out when faced with this kind of action. It would appear not.

[cpk]

Might have simplified things if you had done the capping preflop yourself. If he thinks at all about your hand he has to believe you have a big pair to have called 3 cold. he also has to think the pair is not AA and maybe not even KK because just about anyone caps with those. So maybe he puts you on QQ or JJ.

In practice, I will cap myself here nearly always because calling cold will not tell me anything about anyone's holdings. I listed it this way because I didn't want this to get into a discussion about the merits of capping/cold-calling 3 with Aces a la "why did you cap?! You just gave away that you had Aces?!"

All in all I think you are ahead or will suck out enough times to make calling down correct. If it was OP it would be a little thinner as he only called 2 cold preflop and is more likely to have A7s. 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] I call for sure.

That's what I'm thinking. OP's will rarely semibluff in this way, which helps (there are a couple who will, though, and I generally just call them down because it tilts them pretty badly when I have them beat and that's worth more money later.)

In the case of 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], do you call if you miss on the river?

The only thing that stops me from 3 betting in either case is the fact he 3 bet preflop but then checked the flop. It screams big hand. I'm not folding though because I also hear "missed completely"

This is sensible.

[pheasant tail (no 18)]

When it is back to you there are almost 13.75 BB's in pot. Young guy put in the third bet pf. He might have done that w/ TT, maybe even a 7. Are you 14 to one sure that he did? I doubt it--I couldn't be w/ someone that I simply named my read as "young, gamblin' Asian". Perhaps old-rock, but not yga.

So what do you think he thinks you have? Sure, most sensible players do not call 3 w/o a big hand. An alarm should go off. But what would he put you on? ATs? JT? maybe KTs? Often people who bother to "put" people on hands base there reasoning on how they might play. Would he call 3 cold w/ these hands?I see it all the time in NW cardrooms w/ much worse hands than the 3 I suggested--by fairly bright YGA's, as you call them.

I think the hand you describe, though hypothetical, would be consistent w/ TT, JJ, QQ, KK or AA. Or even AsKs sometimes. And sure, you will see A7 (suited) more than you could imagine also. Some times they will turn ove a 7To and tell one of the other YGA's that that is why T7 is there favotite hand.

Heads-up I doubt I'd raise w/o more of a read, but the river will have a bet in it one way or another.

If the board didn't pair I'd re-raise 100% and if it was a geezer instead, w/o a strong read I'd go to showdown cheap.

PT

[cpk]

I agree with you mostly. Let's talk about this part:

Are you 14 to one sure that he did?

Remember that I have to pay again on the river, so it's more like 7.5:1. I think I'm somewhere between 80-90% sure I'm beaten here. But it's hard to tell whether it should be 80% (call) and 90% (fold).

Without the board pairing, I hadn't thought of reraising when I suspect two pair until recently. Doing so improves my results a lot, because I'm usually drawing to 8 outs when behind, but I'm in front more often than I think.

[DrGutshot]

I much prefer checking the turn and calling a river.

-DrG

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
I much prefer checking the turn and calling a river.

-DrG

[/ QUOTE ]YOU WANT TO CHECK THE TURN WHEN CHECKED TO??/ IN THIS HAND?? PLZ EXPLAIN...

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
I much prefer checking the turn and calling a river.

-DrG

[/ QUOTE ]

Against this sort of player, this is a good play as well (advocated in HEPFAP).

Rob

[cpk]

Ooh, hadn't thought of that when I'm the one that's last to act. I'll give it some thought.

[vmacosta]

Nah. This is never the right play heads up because the pot was capped PF which makes hands that beat yours very unlikely....and against a field of 4 giving a free card here is horrendous. Your line was fine, provided you called down on the end.

[elysium]

hi cpk

this is pretty basic both when the board pairs and when the draw develops, on the turn. you need to be careful though when the draw develops and the OP raises. the OP's will sometimes use their solid image and outs to fold you out. some OP's will never try this play. reraising isn't an error when he has the lead because it will likely give you a free showdown.

most OP's will never ever raise without the lead, even those times a draw does develop, but enough of them will to give reraising merit.

when the loose/ aggressive raises you should usually call. there are exceptions here too though. sometimes an aggressive can interefere in a way that negatively effects your game. for example, he might be seated somewhere to your immediate left, and make nuisancesome raises based soley on position, at times when your position isn't shabby and you want to see the flop without investing 3 months worth of heating bills, particularly when another aggressive is in there who raises when his pot odds are suddenly improved by the other ninny's raise, he thinks, which sends another half tank of gas up in flames when it comes back around to you. yes, these type opponents will often improve your pot odds, but what they never do is improve KJo up to the worthiness level needed to justify investing a car payment into it pre-flop. and so, you find yourself in excellent position only to throw another tank of gas into the muck due to thoughtless and untimely, ill conceived aggression. you must reraise this type of nuisancesome aggression on the turn, and the aggressive must firmly believe that the reraise is punitive action being taken by you against him for unruly disrupting the mathematically sensitive LP demilitarized zone. on the other hand, when both you and the aggressive are in the teflon positions, UTG+1 and UTG+2 respectively, you can allow the aggressive to feel free in contorting the odds being offered by the pot into mathematical configurations of varying exotic twists and sizes, and create a pot to suit his fancy. when you and he both are in the EP teflon seats, your bankroll is bulletproof, and he can do little more than enhance the statistical opportunity being presented as he harmlessly flails away at the pot. often, from EP, only the aggressive has the energy to set into motion the various forces at work in the pot that, although inert due to a listless or reluctant field, may yet experience a revival of sorts as the aggressive renews the field's interest with a well timed infusion of precious seed capital which in turn sets off chain reaction betting that feeds even more speculatively latent, high octane betting fuel into the intakes of everyones scooping jets. we can sit back and relax with renewned self-assurance as the pot grows bigger and bigger, and the healthy escalation of the greed produced when the aggressive enlivens the pot provides a little extra seemingly eternal follow through to the field's forward betting momentum.

what is the aggressive's reward? you reward him by not reraising him when he correctly demonstrates good healthy raw enthusiasm from the EP positions.

when is the aggressive punished? the aggressive is punished when he creates a nuisancesome disturbance by raising while in the mathethmatically sensitive LP demilitarized zone. here, we like to see the flop, not get sucked into a betting vortex. if the aggressive isn't misbehaving, leave him alone to do as nature intended. you simply call. if he gets out of line in the no fire zone, you must reraise with holdings of similar strength to the one posted by this 2+2'er. these type raises are made on the punitive expensive round. raises made against loose/ aggressive are rarely good unless they are punitive and corrective in nature, and the aggressive knows why he is being punished. you punish the aggressive with raises when he haphazardly ventures onto the mathematically sensitive LP habitat where we like to do a little flop seeing, along the LP demilitarized zone. when we raise to punish the aggressive, we will usually raise on the turn. the only time to value raise the aggressive is when you are powerfully strong. are you strong enough to value raise him here? it's debatable. the idea is that you shouldn't put on the blinders and see only dollar signs when considering whether or not to raise a loose/ aggressive for value. often these type opponents are thick and can only decipher the sound of the heavy bell volley that accompanies an unexpected hefty raise. this only works if the aggressive can still be stirred into a more or less reasonable level of simple short term primative retension and proper accompanying reflex leading to a corrective behavioral tweek while in certain positional situations at the table, albeit the corrective behavioral tweek may be at a primitive 'no-no' level. if you hammer him over and over with heavy raise and reraise volleys at every opportunity, the aggressive will begin to deafen and become unresponsive to the only means you have at the ready to relay over to him what it is you are attempting communicate to him. outside of striking the aggressive with a ruler or stick when he gets out of line, we have no means other than the volley of heavy bells generated by our hefty raise to communicate to him, and we must preserve our only viable communication option by selectively raising the aggressive so that when we raise him he will still be able to hear and be shaken into a cognizance by the ringing residual volleys left in the wake of our punitive but selective, correctional taming raises and reraises. we are merely interested in raising the level of the aggressive's retension and understanding from an 'uggh!' to a respectable 'no-no?'. this can often be achieved through selective correctional raising.