KJo - An example of how my game has changed.

[GrunchCan]

I'm not folding PF either, but I'm thinking maybe I should. With every limper ahead of you, the threat of domination increases.

So I'm on the fence. Also to consider is the fact that many of the hands that dominate you also raise PF.

Discuss?

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
The flop raise is absolutely correct. You don't want to drag 2 overs around with 6 opponents. But I certianly fold to the button's 3-bet.

Why were you expecting the button to reraise you? Sounds like a read.

Edit:

I posted before I read responses, as is my way. I see I am in opposition to several others. Iv'e read through the posts, and I think I get it, but I still disagree. The button raising PF is not a clear indication of a quality hand, since there are no reads and many opponents. Therefore on the flop I stick by what I said: raising is clearly the correct play, to protect your marginal hand.


[/ QUOTE ]

Problem is, with a preflop raiser still left to act behind you, K-high isn't a marginal hand worthy of protecting. It isn't much of a hand at all, actually. Without a read on Button as being maniac, you've got 3 unsafe outs to draw to, perhaps less. Folding here is ok.

Rob

[k000k]

[ QUOTE ]
On the flop, I think you need to call 1 bet getting 15-1.

I think raising is bad.


[/ QUOTE ]

15:1, but you can expect a button raise a lot of the time. If he does, you're odds probably go down to 9:1 or so. Split the diff. and call it 12:1 I fold the flop, KJ isn't good against a PF raiser most of the time. Now you got a guy betting into the PF raiser, I'd say he WANTS bt to raise and trap everyone. Scary stuff..

You have nothing, 2 overcards, and you can't say you have a full 6 outs here. 6 outs are 8:1, after a discount I think 12:1 is very generous, which matches our return estimate above. It's a close call, but I still throw it away.

Raising I think is maniacal. 'Raise to protect', protect what?? K hi with no draws?

[crockett]

Hmmm...I still pose my orginal question.

So what DO you call with then. I'm taking it you pitch ATo as well?

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
Hmmm...I still pose my orginal question.

So what DO you call with then. I'm taking it you pitch ATo as well?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yup.

What do I "call" with? Hmm. JTs, KTs, QTs, T9s...maybe QJs (I might raise it, depending on the players behind me).

Rob

[crockett]

Well sure! Most are recommending fold here for getting 15:1. If the same board falls but it wasn't raised, you wouldn't change it to call now getting 8:1, would you?

But then again you would have folded pre-flop.

[crockett]

Dominated by what?

AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AK, AJ, KQ. Certainly the first 5 would raise and more than likely AJ and KQ would raise as well.

I think it is very rare you are dominated in this situation by anyone who limps in front of you. Very rare.

[GrunchCan]

Which is why I'm on the fence. So again, why are we folding PF, and why are we weak-tight on the flop if we are fairly certian we aren't dominated? That's certianly the raggiest of rag flops, and about as good as it gets for 2 weak overs.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
Dominated by what?

AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AK, AJ, KQ. Certainly the first 5 would raise and more than likely AJ and KQ would raise as well.

I think it is very rare you are dominated in this situation by anyone who limps in front of you. Very rare.

[/ QUOTE ]
Position is the most important aspect in hold'em, and is the reason I'm folding here. Domination is one of the issues that you face (loose passives will limp with JJ and KQ, AJ); another is the fact that you've got several people to act behind you, and your hand performs better when they don't come along (against 3 "any two suited" limpers, you've got 31% equity -- against 6 limpers [4 any two suited, and 2 "any two" to make up for the blinds], you've got 18% equity).

Rob

[crockett]

[ QUOTE ]
against 6 limpers [4 any two suited, and 2 "any two" to make up for the blinds], you've got 18% equity).


[/ QUOTE ]

Ah....If this is true, you should be playing this +EV situation, since you will make a profit for every bet that goes into the pot.

Just so I'm clear...I'm really playing devil's advocate here. Personally, I think I would probably fold this on the flop. It seems like all this 2+2 aggression got me in trouble at the 0.5/1 level. Lately, I have been playin'...get big hand...bet/raise....win...make money. However, the more likely case is that I was misapply or over apply that aggression. Hence, the reason I posted the hand. Maybe in higher stakes where people try to be more tricky or fancy but now I think I just fold.

However, I'm still not convinced that this is a PF fold as well as ATo.