Requisite flop bet after PF raise?

[syka16]

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If you don't like being in the situation of having to give up on the flop because your hand isn't good enough, then don't raise preflop with hands that often won't be good enough on the flop.

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Nice point. Here's a little ABC poker that I use when I'm raising KQ AJish level IV with a big stack. Bet 1/2 the pot. I'm an armchair statistician but I think it's about even EV when you miss because it's enough to steal the pot about 1/2 the time. If you pot it, you take away your edge as a big stack if the caller has a hand and I think you only get a fold about 60%.

Obviously it depends on my reads and board but it's pretty simple when multitabling and you avoid a lot of guess work. Maybe I've got it wrong let me know.

[Guy F]

Thanks for the good contrary views - that's just the sort of thinking I was looking for. With the physical isolation of online play it's just too easy to start thinking I'm always right. That's why posting here is so valuable - there's an ample supply of people with darts to deflate silly ideas! I've been getting increasingly aggressive in my play the last month or so, and it's been a good learning experience because it's so different from my non-poker personality. I may have overshot the mark without noticing. Thanks again.

[Strollen]

A couple of comments.

First the KQs isn't good enough to raise is really irrelevant. Given this flop KQs is better than AKs, because there is a runner runner to the nuts straight.

For big pots I think 1/2 to 2/3 works well, so 600 in this situation, or double your PF raise. I tend to bet slightly higher when bluffing than if I actually hit the flop but not a lot different. The only problem is that with betting 1/2 the pot you are giving the diamond flush correct odds to continue drawing.

Now how often you should do this, is a question that I haven't learned yet. I suspect I do it too much alo.

[ChrisV]

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First the KQs isn't good enough to raise is really irrelevant. Given this flop KQs is better than AKs, because there is a runner runner to the nuts straight.

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Sorry, WHAT? AKs is better because it enables you to go passive and win the showdown.

Also, even if this flop were QQQ, it would be irrelevant to the relative raising merits of KQs and AKs.

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For big pots I think 1/2 to 2/3 works well, so 600 in this situation, or double your PF raise.

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This leaves Hero with 555 chips, so there's no way he's folding if raised, but I suppose you could argue that betting 600 looks more like a made hand.

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The only problem is that with betting 1/2 the pot you are giving the diamond flush correct odds to continue drawing.

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A flush draw plus A or K overcard is priced in even if Hero goes allin. The amount Hero bets is irrelevant to the flush draw because if he's facing a made hand he'll be in for the rest on the turn no matter what.

[Strollen]

Chris go back and read the hand.
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PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (6 handed) converter

CO (t2755)
Button (t1985)
SB (t2190)
BB (t1455)
UTG (t1385)
Hero (t3390)


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Hero bets 300 leaving him 3090
A raise of 600 is less than <20% of his stack and will leave in him with 2490 chips (and close to the chip leaders)
not the 555 that you think he has.

Losing 900 chips from a stack of 3400 is a big blow but hardly the end of the tourney.

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Also, even if this flop were QQQ, it would be irrelevant to the relative raising merits of KQs and AKs.


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Yes but that isn't the question Guy asked, which I think he framed very well.

There is a lot of preflop discussion/debate including is KQ good enough to raise.

But precious little about the more important post flop. Virtually, every tourney, my raise with big hand like AK, AQ, or KQ, misses the flop.

I can't believe that winning poker players routinely say "oh well missed the flop, I'll check fold now."

Nobody has menition your opponents short stack, with 1100 chips I doubt he will call without either a decent PP/trips, or a nuts flush.

This is a situation where having an AK would be very helpful because a bet to put him all-in if he calls on a flush draw and misses would be great.

[ChrisV]

Whoops. First response I made on this thread I'd read the hands correctly, but when I reread it today for some reason I thought Hero had BB's stack. Forget anything I said about the bet size.

I wouldn't say winning players "routinely" check fold missed flops, although it's certainly a play you should make sometimes on NL. This hand is hardly routine, though. You have king high, no draws, versus two opponents, in a pot very large relative to the size of their stacks. That isn't a routine situation for me after I raise preflop.