10/20 NL hand

[cero_z]

Hi Vulture,

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Do you think, just based on the preflop and flop action, that this guy could have a flush- or straightdraw?

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Yes, he definitely could. Or, he could have a monster. Or, he could have nothing. This is the problem with playing good but not great hands against good players, when your hand has been well defined.

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wouldn't it be a better play to make a, something like 3/4*pot reraise on the flop and give up the hand when he calls?

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I think you're recommending raising it 3 quarters of the pot, which would be about 700-800 more. This would put him in essentially the same spot as he was in on the turn; he's just about pot-committed, and doesn't know where he stands. If the villain has an 8- or 9-out draw, he can call this re-raise on the flop, or push; the pot will have about 1800 in it, and it will be 700 to him, with 800 more in Hero's stack. He will be about a 1.5 to 1 or 2.5 to 1 dog. So, in the event that the villain has a draw, this line will make it moderately profitable for him. But over all situations (including draws, nothing, and monster hands for the villain), this line will be very costly for Hero.

[coltrane]

hero could possibly call villain's raise on the flop and then lead out on the turn for half the pot (with the intention of folding to a raise).....but this still might pot commit him........

[The Next WSOP Winner]

wow, thanks for that gem.

[vulture]

Thanks for the reply,

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I think you're recommending raising it 3 quarters of the pot, which would be about 700-800 more. This would put him in essentially the same spot as he was in on the turn; he's just about pot-committed, and doesn't know where he stands.

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IMO there is a big difference with the situation on the turn how it is in the original post. If you reraise he is not pot commited. A reraise of lets say 700 gives him the tough decision. It makes you pot commited so when he pushes you probably have to call and that's the tough point.
The big problem is IMO that when the button is a good player he knows that if you are able to lay down such hands on this kind of flop, he will outplay you very often. My question is: is this true and just part of the game, or is there a remedy against being outplayed? If not isn't the best move against such player in this position to lay down the flop after the raise, because, if he is good, he knows you will lay down practically every hand in this spot on the turn when he makes the right bet.
Please reply. Regards,

Vulture

[vulture]

Forget the 'giving up' part

[cero_z]

Hi vulture,

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is this ... just part of the game, or is there a remedy against being outplayed? If not isn't the best move against such player in this position to lay down the flop after the raise

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Again, your grammar is a little confusing. By "lay down the flop" do you mean FOLD on the flop? I think folding on the flop is the best play against a good player, absent a read. Your best play is definitely to move in or fold, since as you noted a good player will confront you with an unwanted bet every time on the turn, and any raise will pot-commit you (either by looking weak or by being too large). I'm advocating folding because I think that your opponent is ahead the majority of the time that he takes this line, but is still bluffing a substantial amount (not often enough vis-a-vis pot odds to continue profitably).

Is there a remedy to being outplayed like this? Definitely, but it's too late in this hand by the flop. The remedy is to have a good mix of pre-flop raising hands, so that your opponent cannot easily define your hand. I admit that I made an assumption about the range of hands our Hero would raise to only 100 with pre-flop; since I raise in this spot with trash hands, as well as great hands, I would raise it more, to give me a chance to win the pot immediately. But the key is to not have your hand well-defined at any point--especially pre-flop.

[cero_z]

Hi WSOP,

It also occurs to me that this situation comes up a lot: you're raising it a small amount, because you wish to isolate a couple of weak-playing limpers who don't know what your smallish raise means, and you're hoping that your tough opponents will just get out of the way. Then, a tough player throws a spanner in the works. You're pretty much toast at this point, unless you make that raise to 100 with a variety of hands. This is an example of "courtesy not extended," as Matt Flynn would put it, I think. How very uncouth of your opponent.

[vulture]

Hi Cero_z,

Sorry for the grammar, but thanks for the reply; you helped me a lot. By laying down the flop, I indeed meant to say folding on the flop. The best move was to fold the flop, against a good player, considering the arguments mentioned in the discussion.

Again thanks,

Vulture