Top pair fold

[VBM]

OK those things are all true, but they were true before you played it to begin w/. if you decided to play QJo, what needed to flop for you to play it?

you may have the 2nd best hand, but you may have the best hand...they could both be on flush & straight draws (which you're ahead of) or be betting their middle-pair...

don't feel too badly; i've made/make worse plays than this. but do take ppl's advice to heart and raise this if you're in this type of situation again.

[TheLance]

Well, Consider me bitch slapped.

Thanks for your responses, especially to those of you that have been responding to all of my posts lately. (Shillx, Entity, etc)

I knew my choices here were to fold or raise, and I understand why calling this would be wrong, but I'm still hung up on the small pot. (I'm not arguing against you folks, I'm honsetly just trying to understand).

For those of you familiar with SSH, check out the top of page 118, The example of top pair with an overcard. I would hold this hand higher than my example, and Ed labels it 'marginal' because of the draws against it. (and, of course, we are to fold 'marginal' hands in small pots, lest we be slapped by Ed...)

Combined with the fact that I was bet into, with 5 players still in it, I still see this as a good fold?
(If the pot were bigger, say 10SBs, I think I would have raised it).

Again, I'm not saying you're all wrong (in fact, I realize how unlikely that is...), but I'm still trying to understand.

Thanks again for your continued thoughts...

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, Consider me bitch slapped.

Thanks for your responses, especially to those of you that have been responding to all of my posts lately. (Shillx, Entity, etc)

I knew my choices here were to fold or raise, and I understand why calling this would be wrong, but I'm still hung up on the small pot. (I'm not arguing against you folks, I'm honsetly just trying to understand).

For those of you familiar with SSH, check out the top of page 118, The example of top pair with an overcard. I would hold this hand higher than my example, and Ed labels it 'marginal' because of the draws against it. (and, of course, we are to fold 'marginal' hands in small pots, lest we be slapped by Ed...)

Combined with the fact that I was bet into, with 5 players still in it, I still see this as a good fold?
(If the pot were bigger, say 10SBs, I think I would have raised it).

Again, I'm not saying you're all wrong (in fact, I realize how unlikely that is...), but I'm still trying to understand.

Thanks again for your continued thoughts...

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't have that hand on me, but from memory, I can say that your hand really isn't as vulnerable as you're making it out to be. You've got top pair and a backdoor straight on a twotone, two-straight board. There are lots of cards that can come that can change the dynamic of how you feel about your hand, but there's no way you can just fold this flop.

I'll go grab my copy of SSH in a bit and elucidate the differences if nobody else does.

Rob

[DontRaisePlz]

That section talks about the quality of made hands. A marginal "made hand" is still very playable unless the game is tough or you must call multiple bets from tight players. It says your hand has winning chances and you can bet/raise it to eliminate opponents. Maybe if you posted with Q-2, there would be a decision if a player who rarely semi-bluffed was playing you here.

It is the third pairs and gutshots/overcards that you would fold in this situation.

To make things clear, 118 talks about how an AJ on J-T-8 double suited board is a marginal hand. It is marginal compared to other TOP PAIR SITUATIONS but in general, it is still very good in a low limit game.

[TheLance]

Thanks again.

You have been very helpful over the last few weeks.

[afk]

Hey TheLance,

Consider yourself getting bitchslapped as a blessing. You won't forget the responses in this thread, and because of that you'll become a better player. Everyone's had at least one thread like this before.

What we saw here today folks wasn't a poorly played hand, we saw a man's game improve in an instant [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[Stork]

[ QUOTE ]
I knew my choices here were to fold or raise, and I understand why calling this would be wrong,

[/ QUOTE ]

Raising is best obviously, but folding in this spot is horrible. Calling is better than folding here, although raising is the best play.

Why did you call preflop if you were going to fold when you flopped TOP PAIR?

[Shillx]

I honestly might just call in this spot. Only folding is totally, completely wrong IMO. As for a call/raise, I bet you could get a good debate going on it. If you call the flop, you have to raise a good turn card though.

Shill

[DMBFan23]

you have made some decent points, and those points are exactly why I fold this PF.

I'd raise the flop though.

[amulet]

two mistakes.

first preflop QJo is a loosing hand. fold it if others are already in. it will have neg expecation.

second, you raise here. or at least call, then if turn is not a heart and does not look like a str8 card, you raise. raising makes people pay to chase their draws. sure you lose sometimes, but you have top pair, you need to at least see the turn, and to be more aggressive. i raise the flop.