Another 500 hands, another 90 BB loss

[blackaces13]

[ QUOTE ]
im not even sure I've ever seen an online game at any limit that would qualify as a "loose" game by SSH standards

Did you mean to say "tight"?

[/ QUOTE ]

Its not what I mean, its what SSH means. They say tight is 3-5 players to the flop on avg. and that loose is 6-8. 6-8 on avg. is pushing it even for a great .5/1 table on Party. Using the SSH definition, I meant what I said.

[GrunchCan]

Hm. Then maybe I should reevaluate my standards for loose/tight tables...

[blackaces13]

[ QUOTE ]
Hm. Then maybe I should reevaluate my standards for loose/tight tables...

[/ QUOTE ]

I feel that the loose game pre-f standards were meant to only really apply to some live games you'll find in AC and Vegas at the 2/4 or 3/6 level. In my experience live play is just MUCH looser than any online game I've ever sat in, its quite a difference.

I guess people don't get all dressed up to go gamble at the casino they probably had to drive a few hours to get to just so they can fold a bunch of hands in a row, also there's free alcohol at most casinos [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

Online, even cluless players will usually fold TOTAL trash, not so live.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
Apparently I can't beat "bad" players. And I'm starting to feel like I can't take it anymore.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe it's because you have only one category of "bad". "Bad" comes in all shapes, colors, and sizes...

[ QUOTE ]
How do I beat players who fold every time I show aggression. Except when they call me down with their flopped two pair over and over and over.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here's a beautiful example. You show agression and they fold when they have nothing, but passively call along when they get something. What is an appropriate adjustment?

[ QUOTE ]
I protect my hand. I bet for value, I raise for value. But every good hand I have either gets folded to me when I show any aggression, or I'm beat.

...

But I lose big pots, lots of them. Usually because of slow played monsters and draws, or from pumping flush draws that I haven't caught in 2000 hands (no exaggeration).

[/ QUOTE ]

Reread your hand histories or get a less selective memory. What hands are you trying to protect? Which ones are you betting for value? It seems that you have an oversimplistic understanding of the game. Poker is not an easy game to play well.

I'll drop my usual soft-edged demeanor for a moment. Maybe you suck much much more than you realize. It's quite possible, based on what you've posted here, that you're one of the "bad" players. You think you're doing the right things, but in reality you're not. But you're so convinced you're doing the right thing that you don't re-evaluate your every move to try to conceive of better plays or deeper analysis, or if you do re-read your many hands, that you're using the wrong set of measures to see if you're doing the right or the wrong plays.

But here's your advantage. You've got a whole bunch of people here willing to whip you into shape, as long as you are willing to read, to post, and to learn. Your ego will be bashed to bits, but your poker skills will be greatly enhanced. Hang around for a solid 6 months and see what happens.

[busguy]

There has been some excellent advice given in this thread. Hopefully you will take some good stuff away from this.

There isn't much I can add (especially to the post just above this one), but just thought I'd reinforce a couple of points :

[ QUOTE ]
Apparently I can't beat "bad" players.

[/ QUOTE ]

One reason is that you are "bad" yourself. Not terrible, but bad.

Pre-flop:

As mentioned above, A10 off is NOT on SSHE's tight chart as a hand to play in EP.

A10 off is a hand that will cost you a lot of money in EP. K10, KJ, QJ, Q10, J10 (off) are also hands that are poor hands to play in an early position. My guess is that you probably play a lot of these hands as well (as did most of us at one time or another), but stop it and you will plug some leaks.

Post flop:

Where are you going with this hand ?? You bet the flop, get raised, everyone calls your 3 bet and you continue to bet on each street ??

I'm thinking that your probably pushing too hard with your big hands (when it is obvious that you may be beat) and it is costing you a lot of money. Slow down, check/call occasionally when someone pushes back. As someone mentioned above, this hand SHOULD have cost you more if your turn and river bets got raised like they should have.

Someone told me early on that winning Poker is very much about money management. If you keep leaking it a way (pushing to hard when beaten, playing too many hands etc), it is very hard for your wins to make up for it.

play, read, post hands, take deep breaths, enjoy

my 2 cents



[img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] busguy

[DMBFan23]

[ QUOTE ]

The only mistake your opponent made in this hand was not going for the easy checkraise to pick you off on the turn.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think BB's coldcall on the flop puts this in "bad beat" territory.

And by bad beat, I mean good beat, because he can make that call any time he wants (thats how we get paid, but you know that), especially if he's not gonna raise when he hits.

I agree with your advice, hero should post more hands.

I'm running into hero's situation a lot as well at 1/2 on party, and I find the trick is to avoid the tight passive rocks and go after the live action players. At tighter tables, where it's not so simple as betting the nuts into 5 calling stations and raising flush draws 6 handed, you need to exercise good opponent selection as well as good table selection.

this would be a good place to post the "take the training wheels off" thread that ed posted a while back.

[crockett]

I think people here are being a little over-the-top and using poor examples. BB called two cold getting 3.2:1 with middle pair/poor kicker. This is a horrible call and of course moves this hand into a bad beat.

The thing to remember is that you WANT these calls. That is how thinking players make their money. Yes, he hit his five outer to beat you but again be thankful that he is half brain dead and didn’t C/R you on the turn and saved you money. You want this guy to stay at your table and the only way he’ll stay is that he’ll have to win a hand now and then.

Also, I read someone suggesting that you should check the turn! Horrible advice, the 3-bet on the flop is standard and you should lead the turn, lead the river. You have TPTK. I’m sure you’re aware that in some cases it is better to check the river but this board is not one of those cases. That is why you post hands here to figure out when and when not to check the river.

O.k,. enough defending you, now time for criticism. Your playing at PS 0.5/1. A very tight site but definitely beatable. My guess is that you’re a worse player than you think you are. The dead give away is that you can’t read a chart. Reread the chart. ATo in a tight game is a fold. At PS 0.5/1 I almost always pitch it. If your at a really tight table you can try raising with it. I would try to move tables first but at PS 0.5/1 there are very few 10 person tables. What are you doing with A4s from EP? How about 33, 44, etc?

You mentioned that you’re pumping your flush draws. In my experience there will be very few opportunities to pump a flush draw at PS 0.5/1. When are you pumping them? Hopefully, not on the turn and if you are doing it on the flop how many people have called before you, what position are you in and who is left to act. Post some examples.

Also, you said your 12% PF. Again, you’re not reading the chart correctly. You should be much higher than 12%. I think I was right around 17-18% while playing PS 0.5/1.

Finally, I’m betting you need to work on your late position play as well. For example, what are you doing with KTo in CO-1 after everyone folds to you? Even more importantly how do you play the hand after you see the flop.

Post some hands, mix them up, but I would definitely post some hands where you raised pre-flop. In tight games I think a lot players leak money by falling in love with their cards just because they raised pre-flop.

[pointcount]

You played this hand fine.

Just remember that you're playing a game of luck with applied strategy to maximise your earnings. I'm sure every person on this forum can tell you of their swings, it's just after a while, you come to realise it really is a part of the game.

[btspider]

[ QUOTE ]
Sample size be damned. Flame me for making a whine post. I don't care anymore.
...
How do I beat players whose flush draws come in 3 in 3 instead of 1 in 3?

[/ QUOTE ]

your sample size is too small. read up on variance and learn to deal with it. otherwise poker may not be for you if you can't handle the swings.

i fold ATo in EP PF.

[ QUOTE ]
How do I beat players who fold every time I show aggression.

[/ QUOTE ]

QJo just called your raise without good odds. seriously, whining won't help you get better.

[elbuddha]

Everyone is absolutely right - ATo is not on the EP chart, and I stand corrected. I further double-checked the chart I made from the recommendations and corrected two other errors - but both of them were that I should be playing a hand instead of mucking it.

Also, I'm sorry this is a whine thread. Mostly. Last night I really needed to vent, and this seemed more productive than throwing pillows at the wall. I know that a 3000 hand downswing is still variance - but I also know that my play sucks, and I won't turn around with bad play even when the variance turns around for me. Next time I'll post whine threads somewhere else [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img].


Aaron W. > "Here's a beautiful example. You show agression and they fold when they have nothing, but passively call along when they get something. What is an appropriate adjustment?"

I honestly don't know, but I'm starting to suspect that I should check/fold pairs on any turn that I don't have a redraw, and on any river that I don't have 2-pair or better.


busguy > "Where are you going with this hand ?? You bet the flop, get raised, everyone calls your 3 bet and you continue to bet on each street ??"

I maybe did okay-to-marginal things in this hand but probably for the wrong reasons. So here's my analysis of this hand as I played it.

On the flop, I bet out with top pair and get raised by MP2. MP2 hadn't raised preflop so I put him on a Q or an A with a kicker weaker than my T. I reraised, planning to fold to further aggression from him. I couldn't put BB on anything other than a draw or maybe a slowplayed set that will be popped on the turn. Is folding here really an option?

On the turn I still have top pair and pick up a redraw. I still think I'm ahead, so I bet. If MP2 had raised or BB had check-raised, folding would have been an option. Is checking here really an option?

On the river I miss my redraw, but the 2 can't help anyone. I still put MP2 on a Q or a weak A, and I still put BB on a now-busted draw. I felt like I was ahead here far more often than I was behind, and so bet. I would have called one back to me, and folded to 2 back to me.


crockett > "Your playing at PS 0.5/1"

I'm playing at PS 0.25/0.50 [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]


crockett > " What are you doing with A4s from EP? How about 33, 44, etc?"

Muck. Muck, muck, etc.


crockett > "You mentioned that youre pumping your flush draws... When are you pumping them?... Post some examples."

I had exactly one flush draw yesterday, here's how it went (from memory):

I'm in SB w/ Q9s. 5 limpers, I complete, BB checks. 7 to the flop...

Flop is A-rag-rag, 2 of them in my suit (including the A). I check, BB checks, UTG bets and gets 4 calls. I raise, getting 5 calls and a fold. 6 to the turn...

Turn is something-not-my-suit-that-doesn't-pair-the-board. Hoping for at least 2 of the 6 to call, I bet - BB and UTG fold, the rest call. 4 to the river...

River is another something-not-my-suit. I check, folding to a bet from a player in MP.


crockett > "Finally, Im betting you need to work on your late position play as well. For example, what are you doing with KTo in CO-1 after everyone folds to you?"

My late position play sucks. When bet into - I seem to call when I should raise, raise when I should fold, and fold when I should call.

KTo from MP3 first in? I muck. From CO or button I call. On the flop if I hit the K or T I bet/raise and evaluate from there, otherwise I check/fold. Though I'm guessing these lines are dead wrong?