KQo against a PF 3-Bet

[DataMiner]

Edit: Irrelevant post (mixing hands).

[spamuell]

The Gap Concept isn't nearly as profound in small stakes games.

Why would you say this? With no raise or calls before you, you're up against random hands. With a raise before you, you are probably against at least one strong hand.

There are at least half a dozen threads at 2+2 discussing whether KQo should be raised preflop.

Lol, yes there are like a billion and people say the difference in EV whatever you do is very small, so I am happy not to discuss it.

I would, however, be interested to know if you have a valid reason for thinking the gap concept doesn't apply at 2/4.

[spamuell]

It is irrelevant whether you are way ahead or way behind against a gutshot.

Precisely what gutshot do you think the button has here?

[DataMiner]

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I would, however, be interested to know if you have a valid reason for thinking the gap concept doesn't apply at 2/4.

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It _does_ apply, but not very much compared to Mid-Limit games. In particular, you'll often get cold-calls (but not re-raises) from AK, AQ, JJ, TT, 99, and even smaller pocket pairs in 2/4. Against all of these hands, you're at least a slight dog. Cold calls are awesome, but only if you actually have a pot equity edge against everyone who cold calls.

[DataMiner]

Edit: Irrelevant post (mixing threads).

[Entity]

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Precisely what gutshot do you think the button has here?

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I'm worried about the gutshot of the Big Blind, not the button. In particular A5s. It could be A5o since this is 2/4. It could even be 65s or 63s. Or worse.

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You are aware that this is a head's up pot, right?

Rob

[ErrantNight]

Whereas in a way-ahead, way-behind situation where your hand is either good now or it isn't, but either way is unlikely to improved to the best hand by the river, here you are either way ahead or way behind with a significant draw (hearts) that may put you ahead even if you are not already.

i'm still not sure this calls for a check-raise, as you may need to improve your hand to win... but i don't think betting out is a terrible option. if raised, check/call the turn and consider betting the river (definitely if, as here, the hearts come).

c/r is maybe overplaying this hand a little bit... as if he doesn't have a heart (and, say, has an underpair) you may push him too easily off this hand.

so i'd say bet out, switch to call mode if he responds with aggression, and feel free to bet a heart.

[ErrantNight]

Where does SSHE agree that KQo in early position that you should limp, not raise? The only notes pertaining to this particular hand argue: "Raise any of these hands if it has not already been raised." (with a notation stating that: "If the pot is already many-handed, perhaps five or six limpers, consider just limping with AJ and KQ")

On the charts in early position: KQ is merely a limping hand in the tighter games (presumably found more frequently as you head north of 3/6), and recommended as a raising hand in loose games...

i'm not saying that this means raise them blindly... just that particularly for lower limit games the recommendations from SSHE seem SPECIFICALLY to state that raising KQo from early position is INDEED the correct play...

and if the difference is negligible anyway compared to how you play this hand post-flop... I'm inclined to disagree for the sake of the newbs who might be reading this (well, that, and I haven't had trouble with KQo when raising from early position)

[DataMiner]

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Where does SSHE agree that KQo in early position that you should limp, not raise?

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Page 80, the table for Tight Games. (If you found Party tables that _regularly_ have 6-8 players preflop, we need to talk. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img])

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and if the difference is negligible anyway compared to how you play this hand post-flop... I'm inclined to disagree for the sake of the newbs who might be reading this

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"[T]here have been myriad arguments about what to do with king-queen offsuit under the gun. Most of the thousands of hours spent debating this point were wasted. Under typical conditions the difference in expectation between raising and calling is quite small." (SSHE, pg. 77)

Take it up with Sklansky/Malmuth/Miller.

[ErrantNight]

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"Under typical conditions the difference in expectation between raising and calling is quite small."

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*shrug*

six of one, half a dozen of the other.

i did take it up with S/M/M, hence my previous post... but thanks for pointing it out, as the following sentence is of equal importance:

"Until you play excellently otherwise, just pick one option and go with it."

So while you present an excellent argument for just calling... it's disingenuous of you to present it and then say "and SSH says not to argue about it!"

I choose "raise" on most tables and have yet to run into a situation where I've been hard-pressed to figure out how to play post-flop. Because the difference is neglible.