Goofy 6-12 HE hand at Canterbury

[StellarWind]

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I generally get as much into the pot as I can on the flop with a 4-flush and at least 2 guaranteeed callers; I tend not to worry about flush over flush - bad?

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Beware of overgeneralizations, but you definitely have the right idea.

On this flop the 5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] is a much better card to have than A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Some people don't seem to get that. This is a really great hand even if fraught with uncertainty.

This thread is the poster child for not posting the results. I'm sorry about being third best flush draw, that's very unusual. What's not unusual is the flush didn't come with so many clubs tied up in other hands. That's one reason it's usually OK to not worry about flush-over-flush until you get solid evidence.

[Hamlet]

You're ignoring the first reason I gave for raising. They could both be on 1-pair hands, in which case I'm a money favorite. Plus, if no one has two-pair, I want to thin the field to make sure my 2-pair outs stay clean.

That said, the information I got was not totally useless, because it would have kept me from leading on the river if a club had come. Instead of losing two bets on the river I would have lost one or none (since bet-raise is a possible line of action from my opponents on the river, and I'm not going to call two cold).


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You say you raised for information, and the information you got is that you were way behind and likely drawing dead. So you used that information to stay in the hand and call two more BB.

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[bakku]

How can you not 3-bet this flop after a raise and two cold calls?

[Hamlet]

I don't think the BP play was all that bad. It's pretty rare for there to be 3 flush draws out. He's in the wrong position to make the call. He has to beat two hands that put 4-bets in on the flop. I would bet that 95% of the time, one of us is going to have his hand beat.


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Other than that I think you played the hand fine, especially calling on the end. I'm amazed the "book player" dumped it on the end there. Truly terrible play. At least you didn't make the same catastropic error.


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[Chizoad]

The book player is getting 15:1 ish to call here, so even if it's 95% then calling is fairly close. No way can he narrow it down to as close at 95% though. At worst calling is a very slightly negative EV play, so maybe not a terrible decision as I said earlier. Of course, if he tilts because he didn't make this call then it is a really bad fold.

I would say however that in an online game this call would be more automatic than in a live game.

Chiz

[StellarWind]

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I don't think the BP play was all that bad. It's pretty rare for there to be 3 flush draws out. He's in the wrong position to make the call. He has to beat two hands that put 4-bets in on the flop. I would bet that 95% of the time, one of us is going to have his hand beat.

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It's not good at 15-1. He has a much better pair than you do. His eights are second pair versus the flop. This flop is so draw-laden that it's not uncommon for there to be a lot of heat without any real hands. In addition to flush draws, there are double-gutshots and gutshot+pair draws. Both of the combatants are very aggressive players which increases the credibility of some mixture of low pairs and draws being involved.

Raising the river as a bluff to force your possible nine out is an interesting alternative. He represents a completed straight. I doubt this is actually a good idea but it is interesting to think about. It would be worth it if there was a chance the bettor would fold a nine.

BTW, his first coldcall on the flop is awful. With 15 potential outs he should be 3-betting for value, to protect his weak king and 1-card straight draw, and maybe pick up a free card on the turn.