small stakes more evolved than SSHE suggests?

[asofel]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Are people finding that small-stakes games are increasingly filling up with people who play (presumably like we try to) the SSHE'em way, making them tougher?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. I have plenty of friends who think they know Hold'em (at least I admit I have no effing clue) and they've never heard of 2+2, sklanksy, TOP, HEPFAP, let alone SSHE.

This doesn't mean that they can't play well (although they don't), just that the massive influx of new players to poker, due in large part to its recent boom on television,is much greater than those who follow the current literature, post, discuss, and really work on their game.

[MoreWineII]

[ QUOTE ]
Or, maybe 2+2'ers are just an elite crust amongst small stakes player and the assumptions about the majority being LAG's still hold true...

[/ QUOTE ]

Bingo. I don't think I consider myself "elite" per se, but I guarantee you that I (we) spend more time *studying* poker than 90% of the players out there.

[Quercus]

The differences from 1/2 to 2/4 that I've noticed with about 20k hands of both:

* Average Saw Flop slightly lower at 2/4 than 1/2.
* Somewhat increased preflop aggression because of tighter play (more open raises, more blind steals)
* Starting hand requirements tighten up slightly, but compensated somewhat by more steal attempts.
* I generally expect to see two or three decent players per table at 2/4. At 1/2 I expected just one or two.
* A bit more respect for postflop aggression, somewhat fewer people willing to call you all the way to the river hoping to pair their naked aces.

Each level I've gone up has been an adjustment. From 0.5/1.0 to 1/2 it was mostly about tightening starting hand selections, quickly estimating pot odds and discounted outs, and putting some controls on naked aggression.

At 2/4, it was strengthening preflop position play and better utilizing reads of players.

My win rate has dropped consistantly (though my hourly rate has risen) from 0.5/1.00 to 2/4, which is expected given the higher caliber of player at the tables. I had a 4.5 BB/100 win rate at 0.5/1.00 and I honestly don't know if I could have jumped to 2/4 without a decent sized run at 1/2.

[spamuell]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Or, maybe 2+2'ers are just an elite crust amongst small stakes player and the assumptions about the majority being LAG's still hold true...

[/ QUOTE ]

Bingo. I don't think I consider myself "elite" per se, but I guarantee you that I (we) spend more time *studying* poker than 90% of the players out there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Like 99%.

[MoreWineII]

99.9%. I was trying to be nice. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

I also think it's a discipline thing. I've got a buddy that has played for about 5 years. I've let him borrow my copy of SSH and *begged* him to come here and participate. But he won't do it. And he certainly doesn't apply any of the SSH concepts to his game. Last time we went to the B&M, there he was, cold-calling UTG raises with J8s.

I mean this is a guy who's been playing awhile. It's difficult to change your playing style to TAG if you're a Loose-passive, LAG, or weak-tighty.

*shrug*

[mcozzy1]

Play on the lower limit online games has gotten a lot better since last spring. The ratio of good players at a table to bad players has really increased.

Competition at a PP 2/4 table on a weekday isn't bad at all. While there are still morons, there are a lot of pretty decent players. I see a lot of good players multitabling. Obviously, the more good players there are at a table, the more ways you have to split the bad players money.

There's still plenty of idiots, but no as many as there were last spring. The casinos are a different story. They are as fat as ever; but more people go there for entertainment value. A typical PP 1/2 game is like a typcial 3/6 B%M game where I play.

They wouldn't keep putting out more books if people weren't buying them.

[Malcom Reynolds]

A typical PP 1/2 game is like a typcial 3/6 B%M game where I play.
More like 6/12 B&M games play like Party .5/1 games, up here in Northern California.

[asofel]

[ QUOTE ]
A typical PP 1/2 game is like a typcial 3/6 B%M game where I play.
More like 6/12 B&M games play like Party .5/1 games, up here in Northern California.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think i really need to hitup the 6/12 in AC next time and skip the drunks at the 2/4 table...although they were so entertaining...almost wanted to tip them...

[Blarg]

[ QUOTE ]
In general I would say the 2/4 games "feel" much tougher, with many more TAP's



No. Much more agressive idiots though.

2/4 was a huge adjustment for me after a long time at 1/2. 1/2 was much more tight. 2/4 is a LAG fest most of the time.

In fact it brings up a funny thing this weekend. I keep track of players in Tracker and also try and put manual notes on bad players. My fingers got so tired from typing this stupid play or that stupid play I just started putting idiot or huge idiot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly what I've found. I tend to pride myself on how good my notes are on people, and actively take a lot of them. I don't bother much when people play in a way approximating adequate reasoning or skill; it's the exceptions that count. Exceptions for especially good play are quite rare, but exceptions for bad play are fairly common.

Then when I moved up to 2/4, it got to seem like I barely had time to do anything but write notes. Now I've stopped bothering to write notes as much because almost every table is full of LAG's and crazy players, and coldcalling and playing without regard to position or much of anything else is the norm, not the exception.

When you used the word "idiot" to describe some of the players, it made me grin too. I used to rarely use that word, instead using "dumb" if it really seemed warranted. Maybe adding on "super" as a prefix sometimes. Now to note how startlingly bad or crazy players can get in 2/4, I find myself using "idiot" a lot more, and sometimes "super," too.

I've had one incredible week, but a few mediocre and losing weeks, too. It's definitely an adjustment of some sort, if only to the truly wild swings and opened-up, freewheeling play compared to 1/2.

Interestingly, I often see people I put on my buddy list for their abysmal play at 2/4 winding up the next day playing on 3/6, 5/10, playing every kind of tournament, even at 15/30 and all levels of no-limit. The crazies on my buddy list from 1/2 games tend to stick to the same game or within a level or two.