Penalties To Use During Home Games?

[Kaz The Original]

Are you dumb? He CHEATED THE POT. He's ANNOYING. AND HE'S WINNING.

All good reasons to boot him.

[grandgnu]

Thanks to everyone for their posts and advice. Yes, you are right, he is a cheat and a liar. And this is a rough situation. I think Fin understands as far as that goes, when it's someone you've grown up with.

But I also definitely see the points of everyone else about kicking his ass and booting him from the game. How many times has he cheated us that we didn't catch?

At this time he's been informed he is now on probation (maybe even "double-secret probation" *smirk*)

Essentially just ONE misstep will result in him being booted from my events, even if it's an honest mistake. We'll be watching him like a hawk and we'll go from there.

It was partly my fault for not having a system in place to penalize his actions. Any form of cheating can be tempting if it's easy enough to get away with. How many times have you all caught yourselves catching a glimpse of the bottom card of a deck, or perhaps a player near you didn't protect his hand well enough when looking at his cards?

Those are forms of "cheating" as well, and it can be tempting to take the info or the advantage and run. Since he hasn't been penalized before and I've known him for most of my life I'll give him ONE chance, and that's it. Any missteps and he's gone.

[dfscott]

I think official penalties are not the way to go with this guy -- you need a face-to-face sit down. I noticed you said you warned him at the game and warned him via e-mail. My guess is that the game warnings were something fairly low-key along the lines of "hey man, you can't do that -- that's not cool." I don't think talks like this are very effective, but I know that no one wants to make a scene at their game -- it crimps everyone's mirth.

I'm curious what his response was to your e-mail. I think that could say a lot about his attitude towards the game, because that is key. If he thinks that "it's only just a low-stakes game" and "it's no big deal," he needs to get a clue. It's like stealing a pack of gum -- sure it's less than a buck, but it's still stealing.

He may think it's funny -- that "getting away with it" is part of the game. Again, he needs to be clued in.

The final possibility (which I hope, for your sake, is not true since it seems that this is a good friend), is that he doesn't give a [censored]. He does whatever it takes to win. If this is a case, nothing you say will make him change his ways. Even if he decides to tone it down (to avoid running off the fish), you'll always be wondering. This will create bad feelings over time, even if he's never caught.

In my opinion, this is a judgement call you're going to have to make. Is this a good guy who's just not taking things serious enough? If so, have a sit down (face-to-face, not e-mail) and lay it out. Talk to him the same way you'd talk to a friend who you thought had a drug or alcohol problem.

If you get blown off or he doesn't take it seriously, you need to stop inviting him, since it's obvious he doesn't respect you enough to respect your rules, and if that's the case, you'll lose him as a friend (if you haven't already).

If the fact is that he just doesn't understand the gravity of his actions, and he is properly contrite, then you might considering allowing him to continue playing. Obviously, you would have to be clear that none of his suspect behavior will be tolerated. You need to tell him that others are aware of his cheating and that he needs to be careful to avoid even the appearance of unethical play. He can still be funny, just don't do it at the expense of others. But you can't allow him to continue because he will destroy the game -- people are willing to lose their money if they think they're just losing. If they even expect that it's due to cheating, they will quit coming (since everyone would prefer to think that they are a great player that just got cheated).

[grandgnu]

[ QUOTE ]
I think official penalties are not the way to go with this guy -- you need a face-to-face sit down. I noticed you said you warned him at the game and warned him via e-mail. My guess is that the game warnings were something fairly low-key along the lines of "hey man, you can't do that -- that's not cool." I don't think talks like this are very effective, but I know that no one wants to make a scene at their game -- it crimps everyone's mirth.

I'm curious what his response was to your e-mail. I think that could say a lot about his attitude towards the game, because that is key. If he thinks that "it's only just a low-stakes game" and "it's no big deal," he needs to get a clue. It's like stealing a pack of gum -- sure it's less than a buck, but it's still stealing.

He may think it's funny -- that "getting away with it" is part of the game. Again, he needs to be clued in.

The final possibility (which I hope, for your sake, is not true since it seems that this is a good friend), is that he doesn't give a [censored]. He does whatever it takes to win. If this is a case, nothing you say will make him change his ways. Even if he decides to tone it down (to avoid running off the fish), you'll always be wondering. This will create bad feelings over time, even if he's never caught.

In my opinion, this is a judgement call you're going to have to make. Is this a good guy who's just not taking things serious enough? If so, have a sit down (face-to-face, not e-mail) and lay it out. Talk to him the same way you'd talk to a friend who you thought had a drug or alcohol problem.

If you get blown off or he doesn't take it seriously, you need to stop inviting him, since it's obvious he doesn't respect you enough to respect your rules, and if that's the case, you'll lose him as a friend (if you haven't already).

If the fact is that he just doesn't understand the gravity of his actions, and he is properly contrite, then you might considering allowing him to continue playing. Obviously, you would have to be clear that none of his suspect behavior will be tolerated. You need to tell him that others are aware of his cheating and that he needs to be careful to avoid even the appearance of unethical play. He can still be funny, just don't do it at the expense of others. But you can't allow him to continue because he will destroy the game -- people are willing to lose their money if they think they're just losing. If they even expect that it's due to cheating, they will quit coming (since everyone would prefer to think that they are a great player that just got cheated).

[/ QUOTE ]

Most people for awhile found his antics amusing and entertaining. But they have progressed to annoying and distracting towards the game. And even if the ante is only a 25 dollar tourney chip (we start with 2000 chips) that adds up over the course of a few hundred hands and becomes a fairly significant amount.

Whether he's cheating us out of a 25 tourney chip or cheating us out of a 500 tourney chip, it's all cheating in the end. I have not received a response from him as of yet. If he trys to blow this off then I'll toss him right then and there. I consider this extremely SERIOUS, and while I think everyone else is correct that I should toss him out, I will give him one chance to correct his ways. He plays with other buddies of mine from time to time, and he probably gets away with it then too.

[NeverFold]

I didn't read every post, but it sounds like you need to write out some official rules for your game. I have a whole section concerning etiquette. (sp?)

I also have an official rule that states:

If you are caught cheating, management (myself and 2 friends) reserves the right to beat the s**t out of you.

Tim

[grandgnu]

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't read every post, but it sounds like you need to write out some official rules for your game. I have a whole section concerning etiquette. (sp?)

I also have an official rule that states:

If you are caught cheating, management (myself and 2 friends) reserves the right to beat the s**t out of you.

Tim

[/ QUOTE ]

I had official rules, just didn't have any penalty system to impose anything on rule breakers. And I'm not looking to turn my home game into a violent mobfest, that will hamper attendance even further. Anyone cheating will likely be booted from the tournament and lose any rights they had to the prize pool, including their entry fee (i.e. no refunds). This will depend upon the believed intent of their actions and prior history with us.

[NeverFold]

Well I never had to actually enforce the cheating rule. All new players in my game have to read the rules and agree before playing. It just makes me feel better knowing that rule was acknowledged by everyone and may have stopped some potential cheating.

[2planka]

Grandgnu,

I also think the dealer has some responsibility here. The dealer should assure that blinds and antes are posted before dealing out the cards. This may help with the ante issue.

As for splashing, you have a rule against that, and time penalties are one remedy.

Was the offender intentionally slow rolling his called hands or was he just misreading his hand? Generally, the player whose bet was called has to show first. This is both a rule and an etiquette issue. Explain it before the start of your next event. In fact, maybe take a minute or two to review your house rules before the start of each tourney.

Seems that the ante issue is the bigger problem. Work with your dealers to enforce posting blinds/antes.

[MIKSEN]

I dont know about all the probation, or whatever penalty structure you are trying to impose, but it's very likely your "Buddy" is cheating in more than just splashing light into the pot, I would be rather careful hes not marking cards or any other form of cheating..

Once a cheater is identified he's got to go.. Not after a warning or probation he's got to leave before 9 other players can get up from the table and whoop him for cheating against his buddies...

Just my 2 cents

[grandgnu]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont know about all the probation, or whatever penalty structure you are trying to impose, but it's very likely your "Buddy" is cheating in more than just splashing light into the pot, I would be rather careful hes not marking cards or any other form of cheating..

Once a cheater is identified he's got to go.. Not after a warning or probation he's got to leave before 9 other players can get up from the table and whoop him for cheating against his buddies...

Just my 2 cents

[/ QUOTE ]

I use KEM cards and check them to avoid the markings and such. His cheating (that was caught anyway) were little bits here and there (i.e. put 50 chips into a pot when the bet was really 150, or skip out on a 25 ante) but that certainly adds up over time.

The penalty system is in place to penalize players for not following proper poker procedure and etiquette. Since sometimes mistakes can happen or players may just be new to the game. Just because someone splashed the pot or missed an ante doesn't mean they're a cheater (although in this kids case he certainly is) so my new system is designed to penalize people so that they'll learn from their mistakes instead of me just constantly warning them.

I still haven't heard back from this kid about this issue, and if I don't hear from him then I will remove him completely. But I'm giving him once chance to play right. I feel like a battered wife who calls the cops but then doesn't want her husband to go to jail (I love him, but he beats me, but I love him) *sigh*