Flush with an overcard

[Fat Nicky]

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Lots of players underplay their draws, especially in early position. If their draws are all that weak, they may well fold for one bet as well as two. In any case, what is wrong with charging strong draws two bets when your draw is stronger than theirs?

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Why raising the flop is correct.

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If a non-club comes, my hand is quite a lot weaker on the turn than it was on the flop.

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Why raising the turn in incorrect.

Good post that makes a lot of sense to me.

[molawn2mo]

I apologize for my ineptitude navigating the forum and I am attempting to get up to speed. That being said...


"If SB, BB or UTG1 had good drawing hands they would have bet the flop. As such, by raising the turn you are folding out the exact players you want to stay in, namely, the weak draws."


"Lots players underplay their draws, especially in early position. If their draws are all that weak, they may well fold for one bet as well as two. In any case, what is wrong with charging strong draws two bets when your draw is stronger than theirs? (Obviously, I am not completely sold on this arguement or I wouldn't have posted the hand.)"

To this...

I, also, want to charge everybody the max here, but the point of issue is whether aggression on the flop loses more typical passive players than it gains by immediately increasing the pot size. I do not mean to sound authoritarian here but, rather, I see this fairly clearly as a call not a raise. If oterhs see this as a pretty clear raise then, I think that this is a BIG leak in my game.


"The aggression, to me, seems more proper on the turn and especially if a non-club comes. When a club turns then you evaluate how to extract maximum value."



"If a non-club comes, my hand is quite a lot weaker on the turn than it was on the flop. With a non-ace, non-club, I am looking for the flush, not a free showdown, so I would check or call on the turn (depending on exactly who is left and what comes). Having raised on the flop, I may well get paid off if a club does come. (After all, most players would never even consider raising in this situation.)"

To this...

You are, of course, correct that a non-club turn makes your hand significantly weaker. This "weak hand" is exactly the reason why I think that you need raise here. You seem to value getting to a cheap showndown while I value the "fold equity" in my aggression.

Again, this may be a huge leak in my game and I wonder whether I can get others to chime in.

Thank you, Octopus, for your respectful comments.

[eh923]

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I humbly disagree. If SB, BB or UTG1 had good drawing hands they would have bet the flop.

[/ QUOTE ] C'mon. One reason we love Party 2/4 is because people tend tbe too timid to put us to the test by pumping their strong draws.

Don't confuse what they SHOULD do with what they ACTUALLY do.

[molawn2mo]

Good point and noted, the writer never having played 2-4.

[Rubeskies]

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You are, of course, correct that a non-club turn makes your hand significantly weaker. This "weak hand" is exactly the reason why I think that you need raise here. You seem to value getting to a cheap showndown while I value the "fold equity" in my aggression.

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Maybe if you had a small pair to go along with your flush draw. But the only hand you have is A high. The free showdown is worth almost nothing to you.

On the turn you can evaluate if there are enough players to value bet/raise the draw. In this case I'd say if the first position bets out and three opponents call then you could probably raise your 10-12 outer. But by no means are we wanting to knock oponents out here. This is because you have implied odds with more people in should you hit.


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Again, this may be a huge leak in my game and I wonder whether I can get others to chime in.

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Yeah, I would look in your PT database for hands in which you raise the turn with a draw for us to be examined and plead your case.

[Danenania]

The other reason to raise is that you could very well have the best hand. Or at least could have a better hand than MP and get all others to fold possible small pairs.

[molawn2mo]

" I would look in your PT database for hands in which you raise the turn with a draw for us to be examined and plead your case. "

rube... thanks for suggestion.