A WPT hand

[lastchance]

Just say who they are. Given this, we've all seen it.

This hand illustrates a lot of ideas here.

1. Chip Reese's call to try to keep the pot size manageable. While reraising is definitely a nice option, Chip Reese wants to make sure he doesn't bust and wants to get away should he not have a good flop.

2. Howard Lederer is thinking so much deeper than we are right now. What kind of hands would Chip Reese play this way? He's seen Chip Reese play, we haven't. He knows more about Chip Reese's play than we do.
A. Flush Draw. Always a possibility, especially something like AJs that has overcards and is drawing to the nuts. Although he should lead out here with that hand.
B. Straight Draw. Has to be something like 65s, just not a lot of hands you want to call with preflop here.
C. Overcards. Does he sense some (incorrectly) weakness in me?
D. Set. Pocket 3's or 4's might be getting implied odds to hit. He might have Tens, though he should raise me preflop with them.
E. Two Pair. Nah, he can't call with T3, T4, 34, unless he's making a move, and I don't think he is.
F. Top Pair. Yeah, I have him outkicked. KT, QT, JTs, T9s, they'd all call me preflop, and he can and would check-raise me with these hands.

3. I have the guy outkicked. I want my money in the pot. How do I milk maximum value? He could call me with KT, QT and JT... I'd hate to give him some free cards, as there are still a flush draw in there. Though I haven't seen what Howard Lederer knows of Chip Reese, I can't see how he has me beat, and I double up here.

[Vince Lepore]

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Chip Reese wants to make sure he doesn't bust and wants to get away should he not have a good flop.


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I agree. However, this hand is close but not identical to that hand.

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2. Howard Lederer is thinking so much deeper than we are right now.

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I don't know what Howard was thinking but if I raised preflop, got smooth called by another big stack and then got check raised on a T high flop I would ask myself "What could he have?" When he only raises the pot, that raise is a significant portion but not all of his chips, I have to begin to worry. At this point my first choice of hands given the board and his play would be a set not a weak T. If he had a straight draw, which I think is my last choice and check raises me, I believe he moves-in all of his chips. Once he commits a great portion of his chips he effectively pot commits himself and must call if raised so why not move-in and hope my opponent folds. Besides, I don't think he would like the flush draw and at best would call not check-raise a straight draw. If he has a straight flush draw he check-raises all in or better yet moves-in off the bat. Same with A,K high flush draw. To make this short I believe that I consider a pair as the most likely calling hand here and consequently most likely put my oponnent on a set when he check raises an amount that appears, at least to me, he wants me to call.

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3. I have the guy outkicked. I want my money in the pot.

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No question, if I decided to play on after the check raise, I move-in. However, given the way the hand played and my chip position I fold the turn. Well, I say that now but am not sure if when in the heat of battle I don't move-in.
I am just curious if my analysis makes sense to anyone and if they would consider mucking on the turn based on the situation.

Vince

[lastchance]

Do you understand what a post oak bluff is? At this level, a raise to this size is great because it looks so pot-committed. It looks like you're inviting a call, so, of course, you're semibluffing with a nice flush draw, a nice straight draw. But HL knows all of this, so he also knows that Chip Reese can do this with a legit hand. It gets real complicated after that, but essentially, you have to make the same play with a legit hand and a non-legit one, especially against HL who's thinking on the level that Chip Reese is.

I love Chip Reese's raise here, inviting someone to move-in, and Howard Lederer fell for the brilliant trap. If HL shouldn't move in here, then Chip Reese made the wrong play because he should have taken a line that would extract more chips. If HL should fold, Chip Reese made the wrong play. I really doubt they're both wrong on this hand.

But don't try this at home kiddies, unless your opponent is real weak.

[ClaytonN]

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Dear Newbie,

You don't have a clue...

Vince

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Dear idiot,

Your topic states "A WPT Hand", when the hand is clearly Chip Reese vs. Howard Lederer in the PSI 2nd stage final.

Get a clue

[jedi]

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well your dumb and haven't got a clue. Ignore my posts please. I have added you to my ignore list.


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He won't see this because he's probably added me to his ignore list, but how the hell does he participate in forum discussions when the entire forum is ignored?

[Daliman]

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well your dumb and haven't got a clue. Ignore my posts please. I have added you to my ignore list.


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He won't see this because he's probably added me to his ignore list, but how the hell does he participate in forum discussions when the entire forum is ignored?

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Well, I made his ignore list before making his ignore list was cool, but it seems to me 90% of the 2+2 site power is likely being used to filter out the people this codger has put on ignore.

[Vince Lepore]

So you believe that player C in a tournament situtation would try a semi-bluff for a considerable amount of his chips thus putting his chances of finishing second at undue risk, given the very short stack of player B. O.K. Now my point was that player A would make a mistake by moving in or even calling here. Your word were that "Howard" fell for it. Does that mean that you believe Howard Lederer. yhe best player on the WPT tour, made a mistake here?

Oh, no post oak is not familiar to me.

Vince

[Vince Lepore]

I only participate with those that do not initiate the personal insults. I haven't added you as of yet but will if that is your desire.

Vince

[Vince Lepore]

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Dear idiot

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In fact you are the idiot without a clue. The situation is not the same but since you do not have a clue I wouldn't expect you to know that. Look at the payouts if you need a clue. Oh since you must revert to personal insults you are ignored. Had I read this first I would not have responded to your other post.

Vince

[lastchance]

Not only will Chip Reese make this play if he can get Howard to fold, he will make it quite often. The third stack is incredibly short, but Chip Reese may make this play. I don't know if he would, I haven't played with the guy, but I think he would.

And yes, being results-oriented, Howard Lederer made a mistake. But Chip Reese got him to make that mistake with his very intriguing bet there. As good as Howard Lederer is, someone like Chip Reese can outplay him any given day, and vice-versa. Howard Lederer makes mistakes, we all do, but Howard Lederer's mistakes are probably much less -EV than ours.

Chip Reese would not make this play if he didn't do it with different hands (aka, unmade ones). Howard Lederer would never call if Chip Reese never made a play like this with an unmade hand.

As for post oak, that was sarcasm, right?

Howard Lederer only get beats by 3 hands here, and I don't know what Howard Lederer puts Chip Reese on. This is a very read-dependent play, and on their level, I think this play is one of those you can't criticize.

If someone calls an all-in with just ace high because of a read, you can't criticize that. I think this play is like that....

This isn't automatic from Howard Lederer. There's something going on there we're not seeing.