An online non-fold

[Rube]

[ QUOTE ]
Had I any info that UTG would raise light, I definitely would've 3 bet pre-flop. But I'm not one who feels the need to squeeze value from a situation where there might not be any.

[/ QUOTE ]

What range of hands do you normally put unknown online UTG raisers on?

Throw in the cold caller, and you can even 3-bet even the rockiest of UTG rocks profitably.

[Kevin J]

I disagree that it's mandatory to 3-bet out of the bb here. Like I said, if I thought there was a very good chance QQ was best, I would. But QQ might not be THAT big of a favorite, if it is one at all. As Dan Z pointed out, I cannot eliminate anyone. I'm also out of position. Plus, there are flops that might make me glad that I didn't 3-bet. Lastly, by not 3-betting I increase my options post-flop. That is, I should be able to extract greater value from a hopeless hand when I get a great flop and/or enlist UTG to assist me in driving out the 3rd player when I get an Ok but precarious flop. In short, I feel there is more to consider than just the 1st round. Add to this the possibility of AA, KK for UTG and I don't think I lost too much by not 3-betting.

[DanZ]

Very often in the online games I play in, the cold caller will have aces or kings or AKs or queens as well. In fact, it is often the case that the early cold caller is far scarier than the UTG raiser. This is an additional reason to not 3 bet.

Dan Z

[DanZ]

If your opponents are indeed too loose and aggressive, why on earth would you want to tip them off that you likely have a premium hand? The only benefit is to extract an extra fraction of a big bet before the flop. Against such players, the excess action you may get later has to be worth a lot more.

Players who refuse to give excess action later are the ones you must try to extract from early, not players who will throw chips in until you wave a stop sign.

Dan Z.

[Swiss Cheese]

Kevin J,

Even though I really can appreciate your statement about giving players to much credit for playing reasonable. I can not fathom laying this hand down on-line against unknown opponets. Some hands your gonna lose, and if you felt you did not have the best of it then you lost the minimium, play it like a draw and a pair, which you did and lost the least.

Swiss Cheese

[Chris Daddy Cool]

i don't see why you didn't 3-bet this preflop.

it's virtually IMPOSSIBLE to lay this hand down for several factors, mainly that you really can't be certain you're beat. this isn't even one of those "i only have to be right 1 in 10 times to make calling correct" things, because in this hand you're just as likely to be ahead as behind, IMO.

His flop raise could mean anything, literally anything. Having not 3-bet preflop, I would 3-bet this flop because you don't want to give a free card to the A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], if he has AK, AQ, AJ, AT, or the K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].

[SA125]

Kev, I agree with CDC about PF. I know you play well and probably don't have the same amount of confidence in your convictions online as opposed to the B&M.

Two things strike me about this hand. One is how defensively you played it and the other is how right you were about your read.

I know you follow Tommy's posts and this looks like one of those that invite the question of folding when you know you're beat vs the amount of times you have to be wrong for it to be right.

Good players many times know they're beat and call anyway, because of the margin of error. The times when you're right are hard to swallow.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

but the problem is given the way he played his hand, i.e. not 3-betting preflop, and how the flop action went, there's no way to be certain online.

these type of tommy reads you talk about are almost always live where you get a good grasp of the people, and their betting patterns, tells, tempo etc etc. but online its just impossible, so you have to play the percentages mroe than the the player, which means 3-bet this prelop. lead the flop, 3-bet the flop, etc etc because the range of hands his opponent may play in this manner is just too great to assume that he's beat.

[anduril]

I thought I should fold

are you insane?

[Tommy Angelo]

"these type of tommy reads you talk about are almost always live where you get a good grasp of the people, and their betting patterns, tells, tempo etc etc. but online its just impossible, so you have to play the percentages mroe than the the player, which means 3-bet this prelop. lead the flop, 3-bet the flop, etc etc because the range of hands his opponent may play in this manner is just too great to assume that he's beat."

I strongly agree. Even playing live against known players, QQ in a threeway pot with no overcards on board is a hand I (almost) always power through with out of position until at least the turn. It's the AK/AQ/AJ/AT hands I go flaccid with way more that I used to. And yes of course there is some degree of adaptation, some guys just know I've got that big pair. But most don't. Or they do and they call anyway. Because it is so often right in general to call down with any pair, to beat the AK or AQ that drove all the way, I still get paid off plenty with the big pairs, even though a good observer would know I'm not bluffing.

Tommy