can anyone answer - O8 as compared to Stud HiLo

[Iceman]

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thanks for the answer Mike. I guess I'm asking how "easy" it would be to play stud/8 (I've never played it) when I usually play O8. I'm familiar with the starting low requirements in O8 and the rhythm of the flop, turn, etc. I'm curious about the differences.

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1. Omaha-8 is all about nut hands and nut draws, while marginal hands often win in stud-8. The winning low hand in Omaha-8 is usually the nuts or second nuts, while in stud-8 seven lows often win and eight lows sometimes win. In Omaha-8, if a flush is possible someone almost always has it, and most pots are won by at least trips for high. In stud-8 one good pair is often enough to win the high half. Stud-8 is much more situational than Omaha-8 and rewards a player that can adjust.
2. In Omaha-8 the pots can get so large on the flop and turn that you often have odds to play any reasonable draw for a bet or two. In stud-8 the pots are usually small on third and fourth, while the betting often gets capped on fifth and sixth, so playing weaker drawing hands can be a very expensive mistake.
3. Freerolls are much more common in stud-8. In Omaha-8 even the current nut hands are usually vulnerable - low hands can be counterfeited or quartered, while only the strongest high hands can't be easily outdrawn on the turn or river.

[bodie]

Thank you Iceman & Chaos -
I'm learning alot just from your answers. I've noticed what you're saying even playing the "fun money" games online. It does seem like marginal hands can win in stud/8, though there seems to be a fair share of full houses and flushes, though definitely not the nuts. Looks like a fun game, if my brain can handle going back and forth between the two.

[Buzz]

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i've just found that the elements that make poker enjoyable for me (not necessarily for anyone else) exist to a lesser degree in o/8 than they do in stud/8 or lowball (single and triple), which are my 2 favorite games

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Hi Mike - Before I started playing Omaha-8, seven stud high/low with a declare was my favorite poker game. Somehow Omaha-8 has supplanted seven stud high/low. I’m not sure why.

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i know ray zee mentions playing razz hands like 2-7-8 quite cautiously if at all

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I think it’s easy to end up second best with those particular (or similar) starting cards.

Just my opinion.

Buzz

[Buzz]

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thank you for your thoughtful and detailed reply.

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Bodie - You're welcome.

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There is a live tournament Wednesdays at Hawaiian Gardens casino in Orange County and I was thinking of going for the fun of it - it's only a $25.00 buy-in

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Twenty five bucks is a bit deceptive. Yes, that’s the minimum it costs to enter the tournament, but you’ll see that many, if not most, players will take a double re-buy and also a double add-on. Indeed, if I drove the 40.5 miles from my house to Hawaiian Gardens casino, I’d immediately take a double re-buy and then I’d also take the double add-on at the end of the first hour. I’d do that regardless of my chip count. Thus the actual cost to me (and probably most others entered in the tournament) would be sixty five bucks, rather than twenty five. And doing that, I believe, would greatly increase my chances of winning the tournament. No point in hashing through the pros and cons of re-buys and add-ons here - but be aware that at some point in the tournament you may well be at a chip disadvantage if you don’t take the re-buy plus the add-on - especially the add-on. As I recall, at Hawaiian Gardens you get 200TC for your initial twenty five dollar buy-in, 600TC for a double re-buy (another twenty bucks), and 1000TC for the double add-on (another twenty bucks).

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.... I can't lose more than $25.00 so I thought it might be fun.

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I think you’ll find the tournament very enjoyable, even if you don’t take the optional re-buy and add-on. But unless you have extraordinary good fortune, you probably won’t last long after the break without at least taking a single add-on (ten bucks).

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Plus I've never been there and I'm curious to see what it's like and all the games they have.

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If you’re a poker player, you’ll probably love the place! Hawaiian Gardens will have between fifty and sixty poker tables in operation with roughly five hundred or so poker players in attendance by mid-afternoon!

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Anyway, it seems really important to play very tightly when choosing your starting hand in stud hi/lo

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I’m very select about starting hands in seven stud-8 too, following as much of Ray Zee’s advice as I can remember when I’m in a game.

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...since each player has their "own" hand, it seems possible for the hands to change their value much more than when there's a community board - is this a correct perception?

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I think your perception is correct.

Buzz

[Andy B]

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in the majority of situations in stud/8, you will see 4th street if you start with any 3 unpaired cards 8 or below...

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This is way too loose.

[Andy B]

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i'll definitely see at least 35-45% of the flops in a typical session

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Whaddya know, you play Omaha/8 too loose, too. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

You're probably not getting hurt by playing too loose, because your opponents are probably playing much worse than you. Nonetheless, you're costing yourself money by coming in with substandard hands in either game. This is particularly true in low-limit, where you're going to have to make a very strong hand in order to win most of the time, and you're going to have to fade a larger rake.

The problem with a hand like 872 is that it has essentially no scoop potential. Scooping should be your goal every time you enter the pot. A strong one-way hand like a pair of Kings loses a lot of its value once many players are in. Big pairs have some scoop potential when all the low hands bust. Once several low hands have entered the pot, the odds are that at least one of them will get there. You have a weak shot at half the pot. Even in high-only stud, big pairs lose a lot of their value once many players are in, because someone is apt to hit whatever goofy-ass draw they're on, and there, you're playing for the whole pot.

It sounds like you already have Ray Zee's book. Take it to heart.

[Andy B]

I am decidedly not an authority on how to play tournaments, but it sounds like you should open up your starting requirements considerably, especially on the early rounds, which should play more or less like a ring game. Certainly, you should be playing hands like 765 and any three-card Six almost every time. A live three-card flush that has all three Eight or lower or an Ace and a wheel card is usually playable. Oh yeah, and rolled-up trips. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] Get Ray Zee's book.

[Andy B]

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Hi Mike - Before I started playing Omaha-8, seven stud high/low with a declare was my favorite poker game. Somehow Omaha-8 has supplanted seven stud high/low. I’m not sure why.

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I'm guessing a blow to the head was involved.

[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[Andy B]

One element of stud games that is not present in flop games is that the cards that are showing can change the value of a hand dramatically. Ordinarily, a hand like 872 is garbage, but when all of the other cards showing are in the 9-K range, it becomes quite playable. (77)4 is sometimes playable, but if a Seven is showing in someone else's hand, it is usually playable only as a steal.

Oh, and don't play in a tournament where you can't take all the re-buys and add-ons.

[Andy B]

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In Omaha-8 the pots can get so large on the flop and turn that you often have odds to play any reasonable draw for a bet or two.

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If by "reasonable" you mean "nut," I agree with you. Staying past the flop with non-nut draws is asking for trouble in a loose O/8 gmae.

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In stud-8 the pots are usually small on third and fourth, while the betting often gets capped on fifth and sixth, so playing weaker drawing hands can be a very expensive mistake.

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It is true that stud/8 pots tend to get built later rather than earlier, but they can get pretty big fairly early at higher limits (I play $30/60 and $40/80). If the pot gets jammed later, you'd better already be there or have one hell of a draw.