Questions about the supposedly loosenes in SSH by Ed Miller

[Smokey98]

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The play at Party 0.5/1 generally is not quite as bad as at a low limit B & M game. You'll get 5 to a flop but not 8 like at the casino.

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This is sooooo true. I play 6-12 live, and it is WAY looser than Party's 50-1.00. The only online game that I could compare to the live game I go to is Pacific's .10-.20 game. Seriously.

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This has also been my experience. B&M games are looser.

[jrz1972]

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Are the online players really THAT stupid and loose as the author would like me to beleive. I mean, sure I've got the impression that most online players play poker very much for fun, but mostly to make money, dont you?

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Before I started to play online, I thought the same way you do. I figured that if somebody is spending hours and hours sitting in his basement playing poker for real money, surely he would have taken the time to at least learn the basics of the game.

I was so naive.

The online games may not be as loose as Miller describes, but yes, many of the players really do combine looseness and stupidity. I would guess that at any give .50/1 table there are at least two or three outright morons, plus another couple of people (at least) who are fishes by 2+2 standards. I've been at tables where I sincerely believe I was the only person who had a clue what he was doing. I don't claim to be an expert player or anything; at my best, I'm merely competent. But the people who inhabit the low limits of Party make me look like Gus Hansen by comparison.

You're in for a real pleasant surprise when you give the online games a try.

(For the record, my experience is that the .50/1 game at Stars is much tougher than the same game at Party. I'm up 7 BB/HH at Party, but only even at Stars).

[BradleyT]

The opponents you're looking for can be found in B&M games. Saturday night 6-9 players to a flop $5/$10 HE with a kill - woohoo.

[MicroBob]

Yes, the B&M games are typically going to be looser.

I have yet to play an online game higher than 1/2 with 8 players regularly seeing the flop. However I have played in quite a few B&M games where 7-9 players seeing the flop regularly was the norm (I only play B&M about once a month).


So at the online games, you will have to use a little bit of discretion.
But the general points of SSHE relate to getting aggressive with your good hands (or even your marginal ones) against opponents who typically take their inferior hands too far.

The advice in SSH VERY MUCH applies to the online 2/4 and 3/6 games even in situations where you don't have 8 players to the flop.
The ideas of pot-odds and counting your outs and how to play your over-cards, etc are HUGE and will apply to almost any game you will play.

[argem]

Thank you all for the replies! Some of you guys are really helpful. Now I feel more comfortable accepting what Ed Miller says [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img].

Two more questions. I've seen the X BB / hour used a lot when refering to earnings. What does that mean when applied to Fixed Limit and to No Limit? Is BB = Big Blinds, Big Bets or what?

And what is a B&M game?

[theghost]

Use the preflop guidelines for 'tight' games (which are really tight loose games: 3-5 players). This should fit most low limit tables online. You can often check a table's "saw flop %" from the lobby screen. 40-50% means 4-5 players to a flop.

The rest of the book is about finding and pushing edges, which seems applicable in any game. Good advice all around.

[theghost]

BB/hr is big bets per hour. (BB/100 hands is also used, and a more reliable figure for online because you'll play multiple tables at once).

B&M is brick and mortar - physical cardrooms or casinos.

[Malcom Reynolds]

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I too have played some 10K hands over the last year, mostly at party, and I do not believe that the majority of the players are as loose, and they are definately not as passive, as depicted in SSHE.

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The loose and passive Ed is talking about is much like the live 2-4 and 3-6 games I find in California. People are much more aggressive on the internet. There is a 'tight' chart in the preflop section that covers more of like what you should play when on the internet. I only sat down for a couple of hours but the 'tight' chart seems to fit Bellagio 4/8 as well.

[Luv2DriveTT]

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The play at Party 0.5/1 generally is not quite as bad as at a low limit B & M game. You'll get 5 to a flop but not 8 like at the casino.

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Amen! On-Line players are actually better than what you will find in a casino. When a family pot occures 1-2 times or more per table rotation, then you know you are in SSHE heaven.

Remember - Ed reccomends two different starting hand charts, both are designed for loose games only. One is for tighter loose games, and the other is for very loose games.

Evan and I were talking this morning, and he brought up a very good point. On the East Coast (also what I saw in Vegas, Cali, and Phoenix so far) when a dealer plays he or she is often (not always of course) hyper-aggressive, playing many pots irrationally. The goal of SSHE is to visually emulate this border-line maniac players style, but in reality it is just a bait and switch for truly thoughtful and intelegently aggressive play... hence the relaxed starting hand rules.

On side note, before reading SSHE (and finding 2+2) I played best against good players... but I was always complaining about being rivered by idiots playing "no fold'em Hold'em". At small stakes I was often a small looser, it seemed like a waste of time for me. Post SSHE I no longer complain, I welcome these players to my game, and I generally dominate them.

TT in da club [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[bdk3clash]

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But they are not "leaking money", except perhaps on Sat night. Most are very aggressive and apparently have at least a nodding acquaintance with TOP, HEFAP, and SSHE.

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Puh-lease. What levels are you playing at on Party? Do you really think that "most" players on their know or have read "Theory of Poker," "Hold'em Poker for Advanced Players," or "Small Stakes Hold'em"? The play at the small stakes games up to $3/6 is generally atrocious, and if you're not at a table where multi-way flops are the norm, switch tables.

Also, and more importantly, even players who are tight and aggressive preflop at small stakes games tend to suck postflop, which is much more important anyway. While my sample size for them is admittedly small, I have stats on many players who are reasonably tight and aggressive postflop and whose postflop play is just awful. Weak-tight, inappropriately aggressive, timid, whatever--they suck.

When I first started playing hold'em, I was tight and aggressive preflop and didn't have a clue postflop, but I felt like simply being a little more disciplined than my opponents should have been enough to make me a winner, and I was wrong.

I agree that B&M games tend to be looser and more passive than their B&M counterparts, but the texture of most small stakes Party games is exactly what the postflop concepts in "Small Stakes Hold'em" are aimed at. Even if you "only" have an average of 4 players seeing a flop, they're calling with hands they should fold, calling with hands they should raise, raising with hands they should call, checking with hands they should bet, etc., and are thus highly exploitable and profitable to play against. (Check out Sklansky's essay "The Eight Mistakes in Poker" for a more in-depth explanation of the mistakes you'll see at the tables on a hand-by-hand basis.)

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And I am stuck pretty good for Sept and so far, Oct.


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Results? Small sample size? Who cares.