|
|
#11
10-02-2004, 03:50 AM
|
|||
|
|||
Re: Is this SSH approved?
[ QUOTE ]
What would you have done if the river was a blank? [/ QUOTE ] If checked to I would have value bet. If there was a bet and no overcalls I would call. Anything else and I probably fold. 
|
|
#12
10-02-2004, 05:40 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: Is this SSH approved?
I just have difficulty with the concept that a raise pre-flop here is right. With speculative hands in mid-position it seems that we want more callers - not fewer. KTs has little high card value - it derives its value from the speculative natures of the flush and straight - don't we want more people in for the turn and river where draws make the most money? Yes, we love to build pots - but don't we build bigger pots by having more people in when we play drawing hands?
|
|
#17
10-02-2004, 06:03 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: Is this SSH approved?
I understand the players are already in - but there are 3 players left to act who haven't put money in the pot. My point is not that a raise isn't +EV here, it's just that a call might be even more +EV. KTs derives its value from its speculative nature, not its high card nature. With speculative hands, you want as many people in the pot as you can. By raising, you're getting 4-5 addition small bets in the pot. By calling, you might get 1-2 more small bets from the players who folded to the big bets plus the additional hands playing after the flop/turn/river who will ultimately pay off your hand if you win. At worst, you lose 3 small bets by raising here. By calling, you could be giving yourself an opportunity to have 7-8 people in the hand when you hit your flush on the turn...
I would LOVE more response on this issue - I think its relatively complex and I would enjoy some true expert analysis.
|
|
#18
10-02-2004, 06:16 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: Is this SSH approved?
[ QUOTE ]
but there are 3 players left to act who haven't put money in the pot...With speculative hands, you want as many people in the pot as you can... [/ QUOTE ] Yes, and hopefully they all fold to the raise so we can have the button. The hand is multiway already, you don't need every player at the table to play just because you have a hand that does well multiway. [ QUOTE ] By raising, you're getting 4-5 addition small bets in the pot. By calling, you might get 1-2 more small bets from the players who folded to the big bets plus the additional hands playing after the flop/turn/river who will ultimately pay off your hand if you win. At worst, you lose 3 small bets by raising here. By calling, you could be giving yourself an opportunity to have 7-8 people in the hand when you hit your flush on the turn... [/ QUOTE ] You have no idea whether the players behind you are going to play or not. You also have no idea what the board is going to be. You can't give up the value you get by raising because you hope that more players will come in the pot. You also can't say that those players will pay you off when you hit your draw. What is important is *at this moment*. At this moment, raising has a higher EV than calling or folding.
|
|
#20
10-02-2004, 06:24 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: Is this SSH approved?
Let me preface this by saying there is a chance I'm wrong, and that as I've tried to become more aggressive as a player, situations like these have become common raising situations.
I don't see why just calling is such a terrible decision. I can see a lot of situations where calling would lead to a better situation for the Hero. Of course we don't know what the 3 people acting after Hero will do, but we do know that they are less likely to call 2 bets than 1, and that we would love for them to be in the pot against our high speculative hand. You obviously know what you are talking about - and I definitly respect your posts here and in other threads - but I don't know why a PF raise is a "great" play when ultimately you might be thinning the field before your speculative hand has even had an opportunity to see the flop. Obviously the hand is multiway already, but a K high flush draw with 7 people seeing the turn will probably work out for us better than a K high flush with 4 people seeing the turn. Since we will never know how the hand would have played out had Hero called, it seems like a moot point to argue...but I am curious if it's +EV to "give up" the button position in later bettings rounds in order to get 2-3 extra hands in against a speculative hand like KTs.
|
 |
|
|
Linear Mode
