Mediocre 3 Flushes

[patrick dicaprio]

easy fold with dead cards.

Pat

[patrick dicaprio]

i dont think you value them more than I, but it might be a tie [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Pat

[timmer]

[ QUOTE ]
easy fold

Pat

[/ QUOTE ]

If I were given to 8 letter responses this would be it.

timmer

[MBTIGUY]

LOL. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]
Not meaning any disrespect at all to the brief responses of others but I hope you don't become given to 8-letter responses. I've always learned something from your lenghty - and footnoted [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] - posts. Keep 'em coming.

[bbooze]

I had a feeling these hands were cheese, and the concensus seems to be that they're all the way to the bone cheese. I'll avoid going into combat with them in the future.

Admitedly, I always would find myself playing them when in the middle of a 30 hand solid fold-a-thon. Simiar to the way J9o in EP will start to look like a playable hold 'em hand if I've been on a cold enough run.

[MBTIGUY]

[ QUOTE ]
Admitedly, I always would find myself playing them when in the middle of a 30 hand solid fold-a-thon. Simiar to the way J9o in EP will start to look like a playable hold 'em hand if I've been on a cold enough run.

[/ QUOTE ]
You probably just hit on where the true gold for you is in this thread. It's great to be able to objectively pick apart a hand in the abstract after the fact; it's quite another to maintain your objectivity in the face of cold - and hot - runs of cards. Frankly, I would have doubled what I made last night had I not tossed in some loose bets chasing into the winds of an extended fold-a-thon.

[bygmesterf]

[ QUOTE ]
I had a feeling these hands were cheese, and the concensus seems to be that they're all the way to the bone cheese. I'll avoid going into combat with them in the future.


[/ QUOTE ]

Here are my thoughts, and this is said in the hope of not igniting a flamewar about merits of weak flush draws. (You can steal the ante on a semibluff, or the higher ante (15-30+) allows you play marginal flush draws in unraised pots)

Generally don;t play a 3-flush if

A. Two or more of your suit is dead.

B. If the cards add up to less than 21 and there is no King or Ace. You lack high card value.

Basicly following by keeping these criteria in mind, you will tend not ot play weak flush draws. Now sometimes marginal situations come up where a weak flush draw could be proftiable. But if you read ITPM, you'll learn to avoid marginal situations which tend to be self-weighting.

Weak flush draws tend to end up as small two pair, which is death and destruction, or you make flushes that tend to be weaker than your average flush (The median flush turns out to be KJT42) and occasionally you will lose to a higher flush. So for the same reasons you tend not to play suited trash in hold'em, you shouldn't play it in stud.

Mike Caro made a very profitable observation

MC: On average (against 6 opponents) when you start suited there will be 1.2 card of your suit out. If you play with 2 dead cards, your chances of making your flush are less than average, if you play with 0/1 dead cards, your chances are better than average. So I tend not to play flushes with 2 or more dead cards, unless they have (Live) high card value or straightening possibilites.

[Andy B]

High-card strength is nice, but it just doesn't happen that often that someone else makes a flush along with you. Nine-high flushes win quite nearly as often as Ace-high flushes. You might be more likely to make two small pair than your flush, but so what? A lot of those potential two-pair hands come down like (<font color="red">9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]</font>) <font color="red">2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]</font> 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. You don't have to stay past fifth street with a hand like this.

Since about 95% of all hands are not three-flushes, I would submit that a three-flush with even four cards out has an above-average chance of making a flush. I do not think that having two cards out makes a three-flush unplayable. I wouldn't play it for two bets unless it had something else going for it, and I wouldn't raise myself, but I think it's playable against multiple opponents most of the time. With those dead cards, I'm a lot less inclined to take a card off if I bust on fourth street, but if I catch good and no more of my cards die, I like my hand a lot. I know that that's a bit much to ask, but I'll take a four-flush with three cards out almost any time.

[skibum]

A 3 flush on third with 3 cards out is greater than 8 to 1 to complete. 4 out is greater than 10 to 1. I'm not good enough to overcome those odds. With 2 out it comes in 15% of the time, so if I have multiple opponents and good live high card strength or an inside straight draw I'll take one off. If I were an expert I could loosen up I suppose. Untill then, my best bet is selective play.

[CJC]

Both hands are easy folds....

CJ