Advice on KK preflop needed, post your thoughts! - Page 2

bisonbison · #11 09-23-2004, 05:21 AM

I agree with Radek. If your friend is calling here, he might consider moving down. And not in limits.

To a game like Battleship, where only your feelings get hurt.

siccjay · #12 09-23-2004, 06:06 AM

At a tight table anyone behind you is more than likely folding for 2 or 3 or re-raising to 3 or 4. If you understand what I mean. Just calling isn't gonna keep anyone in the pot. Good players don't cold call often.

InchoateHand · #13 09-23-2004, 06:14 AM

Collect overcalls on the river.
Maybe on the turn.
If you flop quads on the flop.

Not raising PF ISN'T collecting overcalls--its laying correct odds for all kinds of hands that would be absolutely wrong to play otherwise. Whatever you do, don't try and get fancy. Certainly not PF--there is no argument, long-term, that raising and capping KK here is a good move. It only isn't a good move if you are allergic to winning. This isn't a recipe for "bad beats"--this is a recipe for legitimate beats, like when the BB calls the single raise with K8s and turns a flush. He/she did nothing wrong. Your raise makes that wrong.

Yerma · #14 09-23-2004, 06:34 AM

Hi bisonbison,

If *that* is what you think of the game Battleship...then I would like to play that game...with you!

InchoateHand · #15 09-23-2004, 06:37 AM

Try and call it "feelings" when I sink your carrier!
A7 Motherplucker, and no, that ain't SOOTED.

dabluebery · #16 09-23-2004, 08:08 AM

This is cold. Very cold. Nearly have to throw a flag on this one.

Anyone agree that this is a better plan in NL (smooth calling with KK), when at least the risk of getting outdrawn is tempered by the fact that you can take someone's stack if you don't? You can play a lot trickier in NL, where you can vary the betting amounts, and really give someone the worst odds by betting the pot or more to make them pay for their draws.

Rob

Bez · #17 09-23-2004, 08:12 AM

In SuperSystem Brunson advises against this as someone may limp with a speculative hand like 87s and hit 2-pair. In this situation you'd probably pay off big whereas if the opponent doesn't hit he won't pay you. By not raising pre-flop in NL, you are putting your stack in more danger than your opponents.

TwinkieDaKid · #18 09-23-2004, 10:31 AM

hi, i was the person who called with the KK. in a normal limit game, i would have done exactly what you guys are suggesting, raise to isolate my hand against others. however, the information that i had was that a friend of mine whose play style i know very well, was raising from utg and that most likely he was going to be raising on the flop/turn regardless of whether he hit the flop or not. there was a small chance he had AA but there are a lot of other hands that he would raise with.

i did not want to alert him to the strength of my hand which is a big reason i didn't raise. giving other people behind me proper pot odds to call with marginal hands was another risk i was willing to take. i am most likely calling the flop and folding the turn if an ace hits without a king.

as i said, i would have raised if i had no info on the table but i thought i could maximize my gain by smooth calling the flop. as it turned out, the hand played out perfectly save for the miracle river card. if i had raised, i probably would have lost the hand anyways.

here's how the hand played out for those interested:

PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG raises, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, CO folds, Button calls, SB folds, BB folds.

Flop: (9.50 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG bets, Hero calls, MP3 calls, Button folds.

Turn: (6.25 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG bets, Hero raises, MP3 calls, UTG calls.

River: (12.25 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG bets, Hero calls, MP3 calls.

Final Pot: 15.25 BB

Results in white below: 
UTG has Ad Kc (straight, ace high).
Hero has Kh Ks (three of a kind, kings).
MP3 has 9s Ts (straight, king high).
Outcome: UTG wins 15.25 BB.

Bez · #19 09-23-2004, 10:41 AM

You have to raise this flop, the board is just too coordinated to slowplay. Flush draw and straight draw are already out on the flop, get it jammed.

davelin · #20 09-23-2004, 10:58 AM

If indeed the table was pretty tight, the two-bet cold call would've probably chase way any prospective limpers. Raise it, no question about it.