integrating the psychological edge

[Shaman]

Why not learn to model your friend directly?

[LokiV]

[ QUOTE ]
Why not learn to model your friend directly?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why don't you go join the NBA and play like Michael Jordan? Just watch his game tapes for a while and I'm sure you'll get it.

Oh. You don't have his talent.

He even said flat out 'I read books and study, while my friend doesn't.' It will be a very long road to being able to do what his friend apparently does with inborn talent. But he certainly won't just instantly get it from watching his friend play or probably from even having that person try to explain how he does it.

[Mammux]

Talk to your friend about his psychological edge. Probably he will at least try to explain what kind of tells he is using. Maybe what you identify as 'talent' is really his set of strategies.

-Magnus

[Lawrence Ng]

English 101 offered in your university or some sort of technical writing class where they teach you how to use paragraphs and indendations?

I read halfway and my eyes really started hurting...

[Shaman]

Exactly why he should talk to his friend directly. All "talent" is a set of strategies, beliefs, and emotions. Thus, all "talent" can be modelled to a certain extent. Fortunately, poker is not a physical activity like basketball, football, or horse jockeying where you have to have a certain body type and have to develop muscle coordination.

[skibum]

Once upon a time, when I owned the ten "best" poker books, I thought I had read "all the books". Then, after the next ten, I wasn't so sure. Now, with a library approaching 30 books, I'm positive I haven't read all I need. Added to the fact I've read some of them only once, and studied only a half-dozen or so, I'm certain my poker education is woefully short of the level I desire.

I will recommend three books I feel it's obvious you haven't read. Al's book The Psychology of Poker, Ciaffone's book Improve Your Poker, and Real Poker II-The Play of Hands, by Cooke. And while we're on the subject of reading, only your friend knows the books he's read. No one I play with knows the books I've read. Nor do I want them to know. I prefer their education remain static.

You might take to heart the comments regarding your prose. You'll find proper comportment in any aspect of life opens doors previously unimagined and otherwise closed.

Cheers

[Al Schoonmaker]

tyvm
Al

[bjmathey]

One additional thing, and this IMO only comes from study and practice... RELAX when you play. Its only after you 'know' what to do and when to do it that you can rally sit back and take in the game and its players. If you have to sit there and think, "Ok, I know i have three outs post flop ... and the pot is only 11 small bets... that means I should ____ the big bet I am facing" You're at a big disadvantage.

Just my 2-cents.

Brian

ps Oh.. and dont try to be like any one else, rail-bird and watch, but remember you have to play your own game. Just because a semi-bluff works for one person under certain circumstance does not mean that it will work as well for you.

pps Oh and Al, you're fantastic and deserving of even more respect for your modesty.

[golFUR]

Okay, yeah, your grammar leaves quite a bit to be desired. I think most of the flip responses come from people who have the same questions you do but are unwilling to ask. I've noted elsewhere on here that I believe most of the members of this forum devote too much to the numbers. Lately, I play the way your friend plays, and as effectively. I've studied all the numbers, and I will continue to study them (at my own leisure) until I understand them as well as anyone else. In the meantime, I'll keep playing my psychological game.

Here are some thoughts to help you move towards his style, based upon my own experience and transition to that style.

Spend or month or two only playing the monsters, play them mostly properly/aggressively with occassional experiments in trapping and slow playing. By monsters I mean pairs and blackjacks. Small pairs you can still limp in early position, playing fit or fold. Eliminate KQ off and lower, eliminate suited connectors. The point of all this is that by only playing the strongest pockets you should get plenty of experience playing winning hands. Your goal here is to learn what a winning hand looks like, from every position, at each point in the round, against all other hands.

At the end of several months of this you should have certain trends and triggers down pat. When UTG limps, then reraises a late position raiser massively... When one of the blinds leads out a pot bet on the flop... When someone behind you calls preflop, calls on the flop and turn and raises a fair amount on the river... All of these are common enough occurrances that often mean the same or similar things when they are repeated. Your goal is recognizing them so that you can recreate them with any pocket whenever you feel like it.

One of the keys to this line of playing is bringing a different understanding with you to the table. I don't win when I have the best pocket and best hand, I win when my opponent believes I do. I don't win when my pair holds up and my opponent misses his flush draw, I win EVERY TIME my opponent misses his flush draw. See the leap there?

An example:

I am in the CO with the two of diamonds and that card with the rules on it, feeling strong. It is early in a SnG, blinds are at 10-20. There are three limpers not including the big blind. I raise to 125.

I raise because a big proportion of my steals or outplays come from a position of strength. Stealing or outplaying from a preflop limp is most common in the blinds or early position. Think about it and it'll make sense. I also raise because I want to be heads up. Family pots suck. I can outplay one person fairly easily, I can't outplay a field as it so much more likely someone hit in a way they can't fold.

I get one caller, because I almost always get one caller and because its my example and I can make it up however I like.

If he is an early position caller he likely has an offsuit blackjack or a small to medium pair, he knew he was going to play for a raise but wouldn't raise it himself for fear of a monster defensively reraising and making it more expensive than he wanted. If he is a middle position or later caller, he could have a suited A or any two paint cards. It seems like a lot of times someone will call just to see if they can spike it, suspecting they are behind, but unwilling to see a lot of bets go to a late position raise on sort of 'principle'.

Anyways, flop comes out. The pot has 330 in it. I have position and no cards.

A bet of 20-100 I consider defensive, he has a draw and is hoping I missed completely or something on the flop scares me. I reraise to 250-300. A lot of times you win it right here, not bad for a half minute's worth of work.

A pot bet means a lot of things depending on the texture of the board. A lot of times it is your chance to 'think' real hard for a few minutes before granting he sucked one out against your 'monster' and moving on to the next one. Either way, I haven't found myself reraising these as a matter of course. I almost always fold or 'smooth call' expecting to steal later.

More than a pot bet? Happens so rarely I can't really guess. That would be situation dependant.

If he checks to you it is one of a few things. He missed entirely and is ready to go away, he has a draw and is willing to pay x amount more to see it filled, he hit a doozy and is waiting for you to fall in. Same thing as the small bet, you lead out here for 250 or so. If he has nothing, he's gone, you win. If he has a draw this should be a difficult call for him. It is dang near a pot bet and with your preflop raise he has to give you credit for something decent, that either hit or doesn't need improvement. With either a draw or a monster you can expect a call. If you are reraised the amount of your bet you can guess he has something in the neighborhood of TPTK or set, more options. If he reraises massively he likely hit something that can still be beat....

I had a feeling this would happen. Without dozens of concrete examples it is too easy to fall into abstractions. You see the kind of thinking I am doing here though? This is what you should be doing.

Watch people play, watch what they show down and review the play again. Watch what people do with draws in different positions, sets, flush draws etc. Your goals as the 'psychological' player are maximizing earnings aggressively/cleverly and winning far more than your share from passive players. Figure out who is who, play positionally, force tough decisions, be mindful of your image and how it is working both for and against you, be ready to fold when your steal goes bad and be ready to play for a bit extra than you used to on coinflips and similar situations.

I hope some of this helps you. I'm still working out in my own mind exactly how to 'formulate' some of this.

[Al Schoonmaker]

Your nickname, "College kid," and the derisive reference to the use of normal writing conventions says something about you.
Jim Brier, a noted poker author, has gone back to get his Ph.D. in math. He has noticed the same characteristics in his fellow students that I think I'm seeing in you.
Jim has told me that many other students expect to be given advice. They don't want to lean by doing the math problems; they want someone to tell them how to do them.
Jim is a fine player and a fine student because he works hard. If you want to develop your game, you're going to have to do the same thing that Jim and most other good players have done, STUDY the books, post hands you have played, criticize your own play.
The other people did not comment on your poor presentation to put you down. They were trying to help you to understand that you had not done something that is YOUR responsibility.
If you want to grow as a poker player and an adult, you have to accept the responsibility to take a much more active role in your self-development.
There is copious advice in the literature. Don't expect it to be spoon fed to you.
Let me close by answering your question: "do I just have to learn on my own???"
The answer is, of course, YES. We will help, but the burden is mostly on you.
Regards,
Al