Pocket Rockets... want callers?

[Nottom]

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I never saw the thread but I remember someone saying - might have been ZeeJustin - that running all in scenarios with AA your EV peaks at 7 callers. I'd like to see the thread if anyone knows where it is, to see what the argument was.

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It was 9 IIRC.

Basically they took a chart like this and multiplied AA chance of winning byt the number of players in the pot and it peaked at 9.

[pzhon]

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Basically they took a chart like this and multiplied AA chance of winning by the number of players in the pot and it peaked at 9.

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The following is the profit per bet put into the pot, according to the linked page above.

AA: 0.706 1.202 1.556 1.795 1.952 2.052 2.104 2.123 2.110
KK: 0.648 1.067 1.328 1.490 1.580 1.625 1.632 1.628 1.610
QQ: 0.598 0.947 1.140 1.235 1.274 1.275 1.264 1.241 1.220
JJ: 0.550 0.836 0.968 1.015 1.016 0.995 0.968 0.944 0.930
TT: 0.502 0.731 0.808 0.820 0.800 0.771 0.744 0.728 0.720
99: 0.442 0.605 0.644 0.630 0.596 0.568 0.522 0.548 0.560
88: 0.382 0.497 0.500 0.470 0.440 0.421 0.416 0.422 0.440
77: 0.324 0.392 0.376 0.340 0.314 0.302 0.312 0.332 0.370
66: 0.266 0.296 0.260 0.225 0.206 0.211 0.232 0.260 0.310
55: 0.206 0.203 0.152 0.120 0.110 0.120 0.152 0.188 0.230
44: 0.140 0.104 0.052 0.030 0.038 0.064 0.112 0.161 0.210
33: 0.074 0.005 -.044 -.050 -.028 0.022 0.080 0.134 0.200
22: 0.006 -.079 -.120 -.110 -.070 -.006 0.064 0.125 0.200

AKs: 0.340 0.521 0.656 0.770 0.866 0.939 1.000 1.043 1.070
AKo: 0.308 0.446 0.544 0.620 0.674 0.708 0.728 0.728 0.720
A7s: 0.222 0.278 0.304 0.325 0.350 0.372 0.392 0.413 0.430
A7o: 0.182 0.182 0.156 0.130 0.104 0.078 0.056 0.026 0.010
JTs: 0.150 0.257 0.352 0.425 0.482 0.533 0.576 0.611 0.650
JTo: 0.108 0.170 0.228 0.265 0.290 0.302 0.304 0.305 0.310
64s: -.172 -.145 -.116 -.080 -.046 -.006 0.032 0.071 0.110
64o: -.240 -.259 -.272 -.280 -.280 -.279 -.264 -.253 -.240
72s: -.238 -.265 -.264 -.250 -.232 -.216 -.192 -.172 -.150
72o: -.308 -.388 -.432 -.465 -.484 -.496 -.512 -.514 -.520

Although the thousandths place is shown, the multi-way numbers in particular may not be that accurate. Keep in mind that these are all-in preflop against random hands, not against the hands that would tend to get all-in preflop.

Some observations:

[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]AKo is fine in multi-way pots. For every number of opponents, AKo won more than JTs.
[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]AA does not want to thin the field, but there are declining returns. AA is about as happy to be all-in against 6 or 9 opponents.
[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]A7o does better by thinning the field against random opponents. This significantly increases the chance that A7o can win unimproved or by hitting the 7.
[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]Pairs 88-KK would prefer to knock out a few random opponents. I believe this is to decrease the chance that an overcard hits someone, so that the pair can win unimproved.
[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]Small pocket pairs can win unimproved against a few opponents, but even without implied odds they do well in multi-way pots due to the chance of hitting a set.
[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]Against a few opponents, there is a big difference between the strength of 66 and 22. 22 is an underdog against 2-6 random opponents.
[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]In multi-way pots, suitedness and connectedness are increasingly important.
[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]The worst hands still deserve to get back half of the money they put into the pot.
[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]The potential gain from raising a multi-way pot (and the cost of the mistake if you don't) is much greater than the potential gain of raising a few opponents.

[MicroBob]

WLLHE is wrong.

As Ed indicated, you want callers when you have the best hand possible.


If I have AA and it gets capped by all 10 players I'm pretty happy even though I am going to lose a majority of the time.
I am still the favorite, and when I win it will be huge.


Winning just 35% of the time vs. 10 players is a lot better than winning 10% against 10 players.

If I'm winning 35% of these then each of the other 9 players is only winning 7.2% of the time. I'd much rather be at 35% then 10% or 7.2%.

BTW - I thought the chances of AA winning a 10-way pot was less then 35%....but I really don't care.
It could be 12% vs. a field of 9%'ers and I'm still getting the best of it in the long-run.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

The more the merrier.

[goofball]

if i could get 22 callers for all their money in a cash game i would take it.

[CORed]

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Lee Jones says that you would prefer your AA to be against fewer callers, since it only wins about 35% of the time against a full table of random hands.

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Only winning 35% against 9 other players. I think the number is about right, but why would anybod think this is a bad thing? You only need to win 10% to break even, so 35% is a big money maker. AA will win fewer pots but more money with more callers.

Lee Jones has good advice for people who want to lose the fewest pots possible.

[Richard Berg]

I think you're misquoting Lee. He's not the greatest author in history, but I doubt he'd say something that dumb. Perhaps you're thinking of the AK "answer" on p. 62? (He says it's more profitable against 2 players than 7 -- also wrong, but less obviously so.)

[tribefan9]

I think one of the reasons that people think that they do not want many callers for their aces is that they forget that their aces can improve. Many players assume that all they can do with aces is have top pair. Aces have just as good a chance of making trips as any other pair (and they will be better trips when they do), you could also make a straight to the ace, and you have the nut flush made if four cards of one of your two suits hit. You want lots of callers since your hand can improve just as well as any of theirs, and it will probably need to improve when up against nine callers. When your aces do improve they are extremely hard to beat.

Keep this in mind and smile when you hear people talk about why they never win with aces since someone "always" makes two pair or something better.

[Kc Kash]

Maybe 1 or 2. As Doyle Brunson said with AA or KK you will either win a small pot or lose a big one. That cant be further from the truth.