10/25 AK hand. I don't like the way I played it.

[Unarmed]

Hey ZJ, sorry to take this thread down a notch in complexity, but if his CR was so small, what do you consider a "normal" sized CR in this case?

[turnipmonster]

[ QUOTE ]

Especially in a 6 handed game, I still don't really see why this small check raise means I'm behind when so few hands beat me.

[/ QUOTE ]

you have to ask yourself what your opponent has and what he is going to put a lot of money in the pot with. your raise has little value because your opponent is not going to just pay you off with KQ or whatever here. well, maybe he will, but he certainly is not going to on the flop.

in order to make money with one pair, you have to put him on a hand and play your hand accordingly. shoving your chips in and just sort of hoping he calls you with KQ is not the best way to do that.

my read is he is very unlikely to check raise you with a flush draw after calling a big reraise preflop, so you can rule that out. he probably has something like a low(er) pocket pair and is hoping the K is a scare card for you. as such, very few free cards hurt you and I would basically call and let him bet into me on the turn and/or river if he wants.

I hope my post doesn't come across as harsh. but I think when you get called by a good player on that flop your AK is most likely not the best hand. this is a generalization, but generally in NL backing your stack with one pair is not usually the greatest idea. so many times I've played a big pot in PL and been praying my opponent a) has TPTK b) is dumb enough to commit his stack with it.

--turnipmonster

[ZeeJustin]

[ QUOTE ]
Hey ZJ, sorry to take this thread down a notch in complexity, but if his CR was so small, what do you consider a "normal" sized CR in this case?

[/ QUOTE ]

On UB people LOVE to use the bet pot button. In this case, that would mean a check raise to about 1500.

[ZeeJustin]

I think I have been unclear. I do not like my play on the turn. After his check raise, I do, however, think I have the best hand the majority of the time.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
On UB people LOVE to use the bet pot button. In this case, that would mean a check raise to about 1500.

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW, on UB, raises/checkraises smaller than the Bet Pot button raise are typically much bigger hands. A minraise on the flop is a set such a huge percentage of the time it's sick.

[turnipmonster]

[ QUOTE ]
I think I have been unclear. I do not like my play on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

last I checked there was no turn, and we were talking about the flop [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img].

the whole point of my post is your flop reraise is terrible. you allow worse hands to get away easily and you allow better hands to bust you. you have little information about your opponents hand and he has a lot of information about yours, allowing him to not make a mistake. this is bad.

having the probable best hand does not make betting and raising necessarily the best course of action, especially with an opponent who is essentially willing to bluff at you.

my only other point is a side note about reraising preflop, which with AK is not always the best course of action, particularly if it is on the low end of your reraising standards. the reason being you will fold most hands that you want to play against (AQ and friends).

--turnipmonster

[DOTTT]

I think hero is in a very tough spot if he just calls the raise here. If villain makes a pot size bet or pushes in on the turn, it makes it extremely difficult to call with just TPTK.

[ QUOTE ]
you allow worse hands to get away easily and you allow better hands to bust you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I completely agree with this, but perhaps it's better to take down the pot right there, instead of giving villain a chance to make a move on us on the turn.

[Zag]

[ QUOTE ]
I think hero is in a very tough spot if he just calls the raise here. If villain makes a pot size bet or pushes in on the turn, it makes it extremely difficult to call with just TPTK.

[ QUOTE ]
you allow worse hands to get away easily and you allow better hands to bust you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I completely agree with this, but perhaps it's better to take down the pot right there, instead of giving villain a chance to make a move on us on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you saying that you prefer the hero pushing it in on the flop as he did? I understand that you usually want to be the bettor, not the caller. On the other hand, our hero was clearly prepared to go to the felt with this hand, so folding is out. All worse hands (we seem to agree) will fold to the reraise and all better hands are going to call him, so there is value equity nor no bluffing equity to the reraise. So what does it hurt to call and, perhaps, snap off a bluff?

There are two only downsides that I see: First, a worse hand who would have folded hits one of his (very few) outs on the turn. Second, there was a little bluffing equity against another AK, and now he splits the big pot rather than winning the small one. However, I think the possibility of KQ betting out, plus the possibility of a total bluff trying it again exceeds these two downsides enough to make it worth the risk.

Or are you saying that he should have folded to the flop check-raise? I can't disagree with this terribly strongly, and there are certainly players against whom I think it is the right play. But I think that ZeeJustin has correctly pointed out that it is really unlikely that the hands that beat him would have played this way.

[turnipmonster]

I agree I would feel like I was in a tough spot there too, but hero seems ok with playing a big pot. I infinitely prefer calling a big bet on the turn to being called allin on the flop, because there is a chance he is bluffing if he is betting into me on the turn. if he calls my allin on the flop, chances are he can beat one pair.

[ QUOTE ]
but perhaps it's better to take down the pot right there,

[/ QUOTE ]

my thinking on this is perhaps a little binary, but here's what I think. if, when you raise:
a) you will only be called by a better hand
b) you are wanting to win the pot right now

then you are bluffing. and I don't see the point of bluffing in this situation. IMO hero should be thinking about how he is going to get to a showdown, and more important what his read is of his opponent. if I was in this hand, I would also have been thinking about how to get to a showdown without committing my entire stack if I hit. that doesn't seem to be a concern for hero, for perhaps valid reasons that we don't know about.

--turnipmonster

[DOTTT]

[ QUOTE ]
Are you saying that you prefer the hero pushing it in on the flop as he did?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I guess I am. I don't know if Zee is willing to go to the felt with just TPTK on the turn. Some of you have ruled out a flush draw, but I think that's very possible hand for villain. If a 3rd heart hits on the turn and I'm facing a big bet I wouldn't be so comfortable with just TPTK, hell I wouldn’t be comfortable with whatever hit the turn. So yeah pushing in on the flop probably won't win you any more money if he was bluffing or has a small pp but it also wont allow you to get bluffed of a decent pot on the turn. On the other hand if Zee doesn’t mind going to the felt with this hand or has some read that we don’t know about, calling is obviously the better play.