Someone PLEASE straighten me out...

[Kevin J]

You're 100% right. But good players are able to separate the way "they" think from the way "others" think. For some reason, I've never been able to pull that off and do a good job of that. I don't know why and I'm looking for an answer. This one thing has been a drag on my game since day one. I'll never be a good player until I'm able to solve this problem I have. Maybe I should've posted this in the psyche section.

[DanZ]

when opponents are all too willing to pour bets in the pot, the best thing to do is play tight and encourage them to do so. See the last few pages of TOP, or listen to a tape of...

In this hand, you are likely beat. But when you just call the $1, your opponent may thing a J is good since you didn't push harder earlier or there. While many players would have you beat, a significant number won't and the pot is very large now.

With your set of aces in the next thread, you simply cannot fold a hand that when there are other very strong hands. A lot of players of all kinds and experience levels think it's a travesty to be calling with the best hand, so they push way too hard with hands that are good, but not great.

[Senor Choppy]

[ QUOTE ]
But how can he think...

[/ QUOTE ]

Who cares? If you're consistently losing money by making folds like this, it should occur to you that 1 in 14 times someone is going to overplay their hand and your kings are going to be good.

You might try moving way down in limits, to 3-6 or so, to get a feel for how people can showdown any 2 at any time. Once you realize the same is possible in 15-30, you might have better results.

[DeeJ]

I agree with the calling station comment.

Quite often I win big pots because I have a decent enough hand and refuse to believe the agression in front of me. Sometimes you have to grit your teeth and throw the chips in.

I got checkraised yesterday holding AKo no hearts in EP. I think this was 8/16 but it may have been 5/10.

Preflop UTG limps, I raise, 2 or 3 callers back to UTG.

A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] flop, limped round. Turn brought 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and I was suddenly checkraised by UTG. Down to 3 players. I called and a non-heart K hit the river. UTG bets, I raised, final other folds, UTG called. I was way good with AK two pair against his AQ.... but I had thought about folding at the turn.

Folding the winner a few times (with a big pot) is the pain that taught me to call down more often with a feasible hand given the action/players. SSHE says that calling down is a less costly mistake than folding the winner, and it's right.

Still hurts when I do fold the winner tho [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[tom]

yes, this does really belong in the psyche section. why do you think that people will play/think the way you do?

i have learned (as i have moved up in limits) that at online at the mid limits, the players are at the same skill level as at the lower limits, they just have more money.

[coffeecrazy1]

I agree with the above posts, and would like to add this much about limit play: limit play encourages more people to go to the river. Because there is only so much you can lose on one single hand(barring the headsup reraise festival), many will decide it's worth one or two units to go all the way to the river. Conversely, in this situation, there is no way that you fold an overpair to this board. Four cards to a straight or flush, fine...A on the board, fine...but the only hand I'm worried about here is JT, and while many people feel this hand is golden, I'm not sure it would hang on that long. But, even if it did, I wouldn't blame you for check-calling to the river with KK. I just simply can't imagine laying down an overpair to the board with such a ragged flop.

[tpir90036]

[ QUOTE ]
I just can't grasp the way these guys online think.... What do I have to change in my thinking?

[/ QUOTE ]
Realize that not everyone you are playing against is thinking the same way you are. In fact, they probably aren't thinking about your hand at all....they just see "me have top pair....top pair good." Will you be shown two pair, a gutshot that hit or a backdoor flush sometimes? Of course. But, you are getting more than 13:1 on the river.... do you think your hand will be good here more than 1 time in 14? I am not advocating that you spew chips in situations like this constantly...but once you make it to the river in a big pot it is almost *never* a huge mistake to call.

I was looking through my PokerTracker database just last night and one of the stats that stood out as I moved up in levels was "Folded to river bet". Lo and behold my winrate was much better as this percentage steadily dropped. Granted, this is only over 15K hands....but I still feel that it is significant.


[ QUOTE ]
Is there any hope for me online? I really don't think so, because I can't get myself to think right.

[/ QUOTE ]
The fact that you realize there is something wrong means that there most certainly is hope.

Keep posting hands. Good luck.
-tpir

[Lawrence Ng]

Hi Kevin,

As with any new game, it takes a while to adjust and get to the know the flow, players, and feel. This is one of my biggest weaknesses when I play online at a new site especially ones with lots of new and loose players.

For the first few thousand hands, I am constantly taking notes on players. I give up a lot of EV because I play a tighter game, and sometimes weaker than usual game because I have no idea how my opponents play or where they are coming from.

But once I get the notes on the players down pat and good fix on them.

Sure, there are quite a few players who overplay their hands, only care about their hands and not their opponents, and ultimately bluff semi-bluff way too much. It took me a while to adjust because in the live games I play most players are a bit more observant of others. But this isn't the case on the low/mid limits on Party.

My suggestion for the short term is to pay off a little more when you do have a big hand and avoid getting caught with marginal hands and draws.

So you lost with KK when you should have won. Poker is a game of constant learning, so I would just take this lesson and learn from it. After all, that's what is going to make you a better player than those fishes.

[Kevin J]

You're right, but I didn't see it as a ragged board. There were all kinds of two-pair and a straight out. The pot was also still 3-way. I thought it was pretty obvious that I/someone could beat a jack. It seemed to me he should think that he could only get called by a better hand, so why bet?

Just an awful laydown on my part...

[Kevin J]

Thanks Dan-

As you and I have talked about before, I have a distinct inability to seperate how I think and play from the way others think and play. Quite simply I would never bet the river there with QJ, so I stupidly assume no one else would either. An absolutely atrocious fold on my part.

Btw- I got a new computer and don't have your email address anymore. Send it to me if you'd like.